Question for StatMan

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singlefile
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Question for StatMan

Post by singlefile » Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:00 am

I loved looking over the all-time central PA win list posted elsewhere on the board, but one thing always drives me crazy about what counts as a Sprint Car win on the Grove, Lincoln and all-time central PA lists. Why are URC wins counted among the 410 win list? If I am wrong about this, correct me. But looking at the all-time Grove list and the central PA list, that has to be the case. That doesn't make sense to include a 360 club in with the 410 winners. It makes the list a little misleading. The 358 wins are not included in with the 410s. Why is URC? :dontknow:

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Re: Question for StatMan

Post by StatMan » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:49 am

Good question, and perhaps a confusing answer. The win list is for all time, and the local circuit didn't always have different rules than URC. In fact, there was a time when the URC racers were ahead of the local Sprint Cars. There was also a brief time when URC allowed bigger motors than the local circuit. (Remember there were several years when Jack Gunn had a 312 limit on local sprints) The problem lies with when should URC count and when should it not count. The easiest solution is to count the wins. An explanation I once used when trying to explain this was that if you look at things before the World of Outlaws and All Stars were formed. Back then USAC(or AAA earlier) and URC were the traveling Sprint groups that visited the area. I'd compare USAC of that day to the WoO, and URC of that day to the All Stars. Hope this helps. To take away URC wins over all time would take wins away from most of the top local racers of all time. Consider that taking away URC wins would not just take wins from guys like Fred Rahmer, Lance Dewease and Kramer Williamson, but also from Kenny Weld, Jan Opperman, Ray Tilley, Gus Linder, D1ck Tobias, Keith Kauffman, Van May, Bobby Allen, Bobby Weaver, Kenny Slaybaugh, Frankie Kerr and Kenny Adams too.

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Re: Question for StatMan

Post by hotrodney » Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:55 am

I think they should have stopped counting them once the 410/360 classes were established. JMO
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Re: Question for StatMan

Post by singlefile » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:10 am

StatMan wrote:Good question, and perhaps a confusing answer. The win list is for all time, and the local circuit didn't always have different rules than URC. In fact, there was a time when the URC racers were ahead of the local Sprint Cars. There was also a brief time when URC allowed bigger motors than the local circuit. (Remember there were several years when Jack Gunn had a 312 limit on local sprints) The problem lies with when should URC count and when should it not count. The easiest solution is to count the wins. An explanation I once used when trying to explain this was that if you look at things before the World of Outlaws and All Stars were formed. Back then USAC(or AAA earlier) and URC were the traveling Sprint groups that visited the area. I'd compare USAC of that day to the WoO, and URC of that day to the All Stars. Hope this helps. To take away URC wins over all time would take wins away from most of the top local racers of all time. Consider that taking away URC wins would not just take wins from guys like Fred Rahmer, Lance Dewease and Kramer Williamson, but also from Kenny Weld, Jan Opperman, Ray Tilley, Gus Linder, D1ck Tobias, Keith Kauffman, Van May, Bobby Allen, Bobby Weaver, Kenny Slaybaugh, Frankie Kerr and Kenny Adams too.
Thank you for the explanation. IMO, the guys that stick out like a sore thumb on the all-time PA list are Curt Michael at 40 wins and Sean Michael with 38. I am not saying that to rip either of them as drivers, but 30+ wins in URC is a lot different than 30+ wins at any of the weekly 410 tracks.

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Re: Question for StatMan

Post by fan » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:49 am

I believe you have a problem with the Michael's. You should look that list over again and look at ALL the guys with 360 and 358 wins on there.

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Re: Question for StatMan

Post by singlefile » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:53 am

fan wrote:I believe you have a problem with the Michael's. You should look that list over again and look at ALL the guys with 360 and 358 wins on there.
Huh, I don't any problem with the Michael's. There are not ANY 358 wins on that list. It is a fair observation because each of them have only a handful of 410 wins but are listed as having 40 and 38 wins, respectively. Those were the first two names that jumped out at me on the list. Garry Gollub is another name that jumps out at me with 19 wins, and I have talked to Garry many times over the years, especially when he was racing Modifieds full time. Garry is one of the nicest guys in racing, but that is another name that makes the list seem out of whack.

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Re: Question for StatMan

Post by fastforward » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:49 pm

...and it is tough to explain at times when introducing someone new (or semi-new) to the sport.
Last edited by fastforward on Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Question for StatMan

Post by lefty » Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:39 pm

There are sprints and then there are limited sprints. The URC is considered a sprint car and the 358s are considered limited sprint cars. If you win in a 360 it is and should be considered a sprint car win.

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Re: Question for StatMan

Post by Brent Leach » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:20 pm

singlefile wrote:
fan wrote:I believe you have a problem with the Michael's. You should look that list over again and look at ALL the guys with 360 and 358 wins on there.
Huh, I don't any problem with the Michael's. There are not ANY 358 wins on that list. It is a fair observation because each of them have only a handful of 410 wins but are listed as having 40 and 38 wins, respectively. Those were the first two names that jumped out at me on the list. Garry Gollub is another name that jumps out at me with 19 wins, and I have talked to Garry many times over the years, especially when he was racing Modifieds full time. Garry is one of the nicest guys in racing, but that is another name that makes the list seem out of whack.
You could just make your own list and have it the way you want it. :dontknow:
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Re: Question for StatMan

Post by StatMan » Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:22 pm

Yeah, what Brent said. That's what I did. I made my own list. Of course anyone who would want to do that would have a whole lot of research to do. My list is six pages long with two columns on each page, and I'm probably still missing someone somewhere.

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Re: Question for StatMan

Post by mudclods » Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:29 am

StatMan wrote:Yeah, what Brent said. That's what I did. I made my own list. Of course anyone who would want to do that would have a whole lot of research to do. My list is six pages long with two columns on each page, and I'm probably still missing someone somewhere.
Do you have the dates of Fred Rahmer's 1997 Williams Grove win? Thanks.

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Re: Question for StatMan

Post by StatMan » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:45 pm

In 1997 Fred won five races at the Grove. The opener on March 2, also on March 23, July 11, August 15, and September 12. I also have a note that on August 8 Donnie Kreitz won, was DQed, and then re instated. Rahmer finished second that night.

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Re: Question for StatMan

Post by 5wFan » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:57 pm

Statman,
What are the winniest driver/owners combinations in Central PA? Wonder how many Shaffer/Beam have together? Thanks for your information and insight

Dan

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Re: Question for StatMan

Post by Brent Leach » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:40 pm

StatMan wrote:In 1997 Fred won five races at the Grove. The opener on March 2, also on March 23, July 11, August 15, and September 12. I also have a note that on August 8 Donnie Kreitz won, was DQed, and then re instated. Rahmer finished second that night.
I don't remember this happening. Anyone remember the details?
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Re: Question for StatMan

Post by 1080 » Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:39 pm

Dan...

Statman will know the answer.....but I bet the Tilley - Grimm combination is hard to beat. If you are speaking of weekly racing feature wins in Central Pa. in the main class....Tilley had 100 wins within the first 3 years (1965-67) with Bud (88 in 1965 and 66 alone). I am not sure what he won in 1968 and 1969....but I would guess they had at least 120ish together until Ray got hurt in Langhorne.....that's alot!

Another good question would be who were the winningset owners ever...Hamilton-Weikert-Emrich-?
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