410/358 break-even point

Discuss anything related to Williams Grove
Post Reply
Warthog
Pit Member
Pit Member
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2008 9:25 am

410/358 break-even point

Post by Warthog » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:49 am

Pat Cannon and his team seem like nice folks, but watching another dominant performance, I had a twinge of that "When ya gonna move up?" question again. That immediately raised the counter-question in my head "Why should he?"

Can somebody tell me what the economics are? Between relative costs, differences in how often one has to refresh engines, and the relative prize pay-out, what are the economics of the decision? In other words, if one is dominant in 358s and can pull in solid sponsorship, is it possible that one is better off economically than to move up and be a middle of the pack (or worse) performer?

Please note - I'm not saying that Pat, his owner, or anybody else "should" move up, or that there should be any pressure from the rules or the fans for them to do so. It just seems that some teams can't wait to move up even if they are not strongly competitive in the class they are moving to, and others seem to prefer staying in whatever class they are successful in. I'm sure costs and winnings factor into the decision, so I'm wondering which way the money issues fall.

Again, no judgment intended or implied - I'm just trying to understand what the pros and cons of moving from one class to another are, so that I have some understanding of what factors might be in play when some teams move, and others don't. I've only be coming to the sprint car races for a couple years now, so seeing another dominant Cannon performance just brought that question to mind as a current example. I'm sure others before have been in the same position, so please take this is a general question with the number 3 team as merely an example.
Q: How is Central PA different from the Old West?
A: In Central PA, the Outlaws try to catch The Posse!

ON THE CUSHION

Re: 410/358 break-even point

Post by ON THE CUSHION » Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:53 pm

It just looks like it's not an even playing field. I'm sure you put any of the top ten drivers from last night in that car and they win. I just can't understand how 1 team has such an advantage over everyone else.

DirtHawk

Re: 410/358 break-even point

Post by DirtHawk » Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:38 pm

ON THE CUSHION wrote:It just looks like it's not an even playing field. I'm sure you put any of the top ten drivers from last night in that car and they win. I just can't understand how 1 team has such an advantage over everyone else.
:idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:

JMO Motorsports
Junior Crew Member
Junior Crew Member
Posts: 408
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:19 pm

Re: 410/358 break-even point

Post by JMO Motorsports » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:21 pm

Maybe the owner, driver and team enjoy racing 358's. Pat Cannon does not have any equipment or parts, or engines that are not available to everyone. Possibly, the crew takes racing very seriously and works very hard all week on the car, the owner proivides them what they need, and the driver is extremely talented. Not everyone wants to spend what it takes to run 410's nor do they wish to turn their hobby into a full time occupation.

Remember, when a car hits the track for the featurte, it doesn't matter howw many cars, motors, tires, wheels, or shocks he has................you only have one of everythnig when you hit the track and so does everyone else.

Pat Cannon is not invincible not is the team a group of superhumans..........they are regular guys like everyone else.......except for one thing............they are not preoccupied with what everyone else is buying, doing, or trying...........they concentrate on their own progam, striving to make it better each week.

As I walk through the pits, it appears to me that "Pat Cannoln is the Buzz" ......Pat this, Pat that, Highlands got this, Highlands got that..........perhaps if everyone did what Highlands/Cannon do and concentrate on their own programs with as mucch energy as they expend to worry about Pat Cannon............maybe on their given night, they'd be right there side by side with him. :ahhhh:

shafferfan88
Pit Member
Pit Member
Posts: 988
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:10 pm

Re: 410/358 break-even point

Post by shafferfan88 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:26 pm

JMO Motorsports wrote:Maybe the owner, driver and team enjoy racing 358's. Pat Cannon does not have any equipment or parts, or engines that are not available to everyone. Possibly, the crew takes racing very seriously and works very hard all week on the car, the owner proivides them what they need, and the driver is extremely talented. Not everyone wants to spend what it takes to run 410's nor do they wish to turn their hobby into a full time occupation.

Remember, when a car hits the track for the featurte, it doesn't matter howw many cars, motors, tires, wheels, or shocks he has................you only have one of everythnig when you hit the track and so does everyone else.

Pat Cannon is not invincible not is the team a group of superhumans..........they are regular guys like everyone else.......except for one thing............they are not preoccupied with what everyone else is buying, doing, or trying...........they concentrate on their own progam, striving to make it better each week.

As I walk through the pits, it appears to me that "Pat Cannoln is the Buzz" ......Pat this, Pat that, Highlands got this, Highlands got that..........perhaps if everyone did what Highlands/Cannon do and concentrate on their own programs with as mucch energy as they expend to worry about Pat Cannon............maybe on their given night, they'd be right there side by side with him. :ahhhh:
:idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:

Very well stated.

Haters are gonna hate. :bananadance:

User avatar
kitchen king
Crew Chief
Crew Chief
Posts: 2379
Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:25 pm
Location: Spring Grove

Re: 410/358 break-even point

Post by kitchen king » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:41 pm

Over the years the Highlands car has always been fast no matter who was in it or what class they were racing..... As for Pat Cannon.... He just flat out has the talent to wheel a racecar...... :dance:
To my loving Brother Mike Zeigler Sr.
April 28, 1958 - May 31, 2011 RIP Mike.....
I LOVE YOU and will never forget how great a brother you were.

Image

http://www.rodneyzeigler.smugmug.com

heck45
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:12 am

Re: 410/358 break-even point

Post by heck45 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:16 pm

I might be wrong but I think that the first or second time Cannon drove a 410 he won and I think that was in a Highlands car also.

ON THE CUSHION

Re: 410/358 break-even point

Post by ON THE CUSHION » Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:40 pm

I have to laugh we were at panchos and there is a 358 for sale and his selling point for the motor was it led every lap until the last one when Pat passed them. You can say what you want they just like the 358's BLAH BLAH BLAH and your right everyone can spend the same money but don't you think they would want to step up to 410's full time and challenge themselves instead of beaten up on lower dollar 358 teams. If there so dedicated with the 358 what would make it anymore a full time job than what there doing now. How can you say it doesn't matter how many cars, motors, tires, wheels, or shocks he has! That has to be one of the dumbest statements I've read on this board! Go ask a team that only has one motor and car or a couple shocks if it matters. By the way Congrats to the 3 team for 3/4 track victory tonight at Port it was a good race between the other 20 cars.

User avatar
GOSHOW
Legend
Legend
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 2:04 am
Location: DOVER

Re: 410/358 break-even point

Post by GOSHOW » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:20 am

Remember, when a car hits the track for the featurte, it doesn't matter howw many cars, motors, tires, wheels, or shocks he has................you only have one of everythnig when you hit the track and so does everyone else.
Exactly! Sorry i don't consider that a dumb statement, i have always stood by that and raced by that. You are talking one race when the wheels hit the track everyone is equal. Now if you talk championships or how many times you can race, which i admit relates to how well you can perform as in seat time and set up. You also come into the situation as to how hard a driver will charge when he knows that is all he has. I still stand on agreement with that statement though, when the tires hit the track for the feature IF you have a good driver and If you did your homework no matter what your budget you have an equal shot. JMO

User avatar
Highside
Pit Member
Pit Member
Posts: 542
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:13 pm

Re: 410/358 break-even point

Post by Highside » Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:37 am

they've pretty much already found out you can't bottom feed around the track and win consistently in a 410

User avatar
bschriver11
Junior Crew Member
Junior Crew Member
Posts: 301
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 11:51 pm

Re: 410/358 break-even point

Post by bschriver11 » Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:27 am

Tell that to Bobby Allen! :laughing7:

User avatar
felix12
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:44 am
Location: Greencastle

Re: 410/358 break-even point

Post by felix12 » Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:40 am

JMO Motorsports wrote:Maybe the owner, driver and team enjoy racing 358's. Pat Cannon does not have any equipment or parts, or engines that are not available to everyone. Possibly, the crew takes racing very seriously and works very hard all week on the car, the owner proivides them what they need, and the driver is extremely talented. Not everyone wants to spend what it takes to run 410's nor do they wish to turn their hobby into a full time occupation.

Remember, when a car hits the track for the featurte, it doesn't matter howw many cars, motors, tires, wheels, or shocks he has................you only have one of everythnig when you hit the track and so does everyone else.

Pat Cannon is not invincible not is the team a group of superhumans..........they are regular guys like everyone else.......except for one thing............they are not preoccupied with what everyone else is buying, doing, or trying...........they concentrate on their own progam, striving to make it better each week.

As I walk through the pits, it appears to me that "Pat Cannoln is the Buzz" ......Pat this, Pat that, Highlands got this, Highlands got that..........perhaps if everyone did what Highlands/Cannon do and concentrate on their own programs with as mucch energy as they expend to worry about Pat Cannon............maybe on their given night, they'd be right there side by side with him. :ahhhh:

AMEN!
Nothing beats the old points based handicapping system.
Draw and TT shows suck.


2015 Races
Lincoln 4
Susquehanna 2
Williamsgrove Fri 1
Williamsgrove Sat 9
Selinsgrove 2
Hagerstown :(
Big Diamond 1
Path Valley wingless 4
Path Valley 410 1
Port Royal 1 (Super Sportsman show)
Michigan International 1
Richmond International 1

User avatar
DillsburgRacer
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2011 1:09 pm

Re: 410/358 break-even point

Post by DillsburgRacer » Sun Mar 20, 2011 6:36 pm

I am sure that a lot of really good race car drivers are waiting for Steve Kinser to move up !

User avatar
swigsbv
Pit Member
Pit Member
Posts: 529
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:23 pm
Location: Elizabethtown Pa.

Re: 410/358 break-even point

Post by swigsbv » Sun Mar 20, 2011 7:43 pm

If you cant run with the BIG dogs stay on the porch!!!!! :uzi: :buttkick:
I L T S F F R W R

JMO Motorsports
Junior Crew Member
Junior Crew Member
Posts: 408
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:19 pm

Re: 410/358 break-even point

Post by JMO Motorsports » Sun Mar 20, 2011 8:01 pm

I am surprised that you think my comment the dumbest thing you ever heard. Well "on the cushion".........I speak from experience as a car owner, probablly a lot less valuable experience than that you speak from as a computer owner. My team has multiple cars, many engines, more of everything than many........and I've gotten some of my best results when I had a lot less equipment.........the amount of equipment you have makes you deep..........not good. Some of the best years I had as a car owner was when I had alot less equipment and spent alot less money......and I can show you the records to prove that one. The guys on my team work very hard and when we stepped up to 410's from 360's...........believe me, it was alot more work to maintain a 410 car......and it just wore everyone out.......but again, I speak from actual experience..........but I'll tell you what, in an effort to know as much as some of you people know, i'm going to sit in the stands next week becasue obviously I can learn more there than by owning a team.

Going by your theory.........Fred, Lance, Todd, etc. would all have had to "move up" to WoO and Steve and Sammy should be at Indy right now practicing.........HA.....This is America, people can participate at whatever level they wish.

But, why don't you offer to buy their tires and frsehen their motors for a season in 410 racing. Then you'll get to see them move up and you'll experience how much 410 racing actually costs....maybe thewn you won't think the truth is so dumb.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest