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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:19 pm 
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If 410's became 360's, how would this affect URC?

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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:52 pm 
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Scott H wrote:
If 410's became 360's, how would this affect URC?

I think it would depend greatly on the payout structure. I could see it going either way, depending on the economics of it. If URC pays well enough compared to the local tracks, we might see teams deciding that if they are all going to run 360s anyway, they might as well go on the URC tour. It's also possible that one might see URC teams decide that if the main Central PA tracks now have 360s as their premier division (with "featured attraction" rather than "support class" money), they might as well stay home and run local, once all the cost calculations are done.

The big question is, as I said before, what will the WoO (and Knoxville) do? I don't see WG making the move to dump the WoO, or to have the WoO shows be the only 410 races of the season. And if the Grove doesn't go to 360s as the top class, I don't see Lincoln or Port (or the two of them together) doing it either.

Personally, I think that it's more likely that Central PA would go with the Shatz/Shaver A4MP or something like it, with some transition period from 410s to the A4MP, and running the A4MP engines against the WoO's 410s.

I also agree that it's likely that shifting to 360s would only make a 360 engine cost the same or more than today's 410 engine.

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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:40 pm 
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Hate to tell you guys this, but if you eliminate 410s completely what happens to 360s? The 360s become the big guy stuff just like the 410s have become, the motors go up in price (Economics), and the 360s become exactly what the 410s were only the cars are slower. Not even considering any other fact like high $$$$$ teams spending more to be faster than everyone else etc.

410s are not going away anytime soon.

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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:53 pm 
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I can't see 410's going away at all to be honest. They have that "it" factor that the 360's don't have. I have been following the URC schedule all year and have been to about 15 410 races, and nothing compares to the 410's if you ask me. Also, just because the 360's are slower doesn't mean better racing.

If these tracks do welcome 360's to the shows, it will greatly affect URC. Many teams would rather stay near home and race weekly instead of traveling to NY, NC, and SC with the URC.

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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:04 am 
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Dirttrackracing wrote:
Hate to tell you guys this, but if you eliminate 410s completely what happens to 360s? The 360s become the big guy stuff just like the 410s have become, the motors go up in price (Economics), and the 360s become exactly what the 410s were only the cars are slower. Not even considering any other fact like high $$$$$ teams spending more to be faster than everyone else etc.

410s are not going away anytime soon.



I think 360's would be and stay a lot cheaper than a 410. The 360's would be running spec motors all over the United States. Lots of competition for the car owners dollar. Not many 410's in comparison to 360's right now, and not many options for a car owner. The handwriting is on the wall for 358's. Once the 360's take the place of the 358's the dominoes will start to fall and the 410 will be no more. Some believe the WoO and the Grove control sprint racing. I believe that theory will be proven wrong. The WoO will either follow suit or will not exist. Another follow the leader race at the Grove last night. 410 racing has hit rock bottom in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:21 am 
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NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
Dirttrackracing wrote:
Hate to tell you guys this, but if you eliminate 410s completely what happens to 360s? The 360s become the big guy stuff just like the 410s have become, the motors go up in price (Economics), and the 360s become exactly what the 410s were only the cars are slower. Not even considering any other fact like high $$$$$ teams spending more to be faster than everyone else etc.

410s are not going away anytime soon.



I think 360's would be and stay a lot cheaper than a 410. The 360's would be running spec motors all over the United States. Lots of competition for the car owners dollar. Not many 410's in comparison to 360's right now, and not many options for a car owner. The handwriting is on the wall for 358's. Once the 360's take the place of the 358's the dominoes will start to fall and the 410 will be no more. Some believe the WoO and the Grove control sprint racing. I believe that theory will be proven wrong. The WoO will either follow suit or will not exist. Another follow the leader race at the Grove last night. 410 racing has hit rock bottom in my opinion.
Disagree. Unless you go with a straight up crate motor class (won't happen) the 360 motors will become just as if not more expensive than the 410 motors for folks to compete with. People will do all the same work plus even more to a 360 in the attempt to get more HP out of it. When you have independent builders building motors for the top tier of competition the demand and the competition between the builders is what is going to control the price, not the fact that the motor is 50 cubic inches smaller. You think that because it is 50 cubic inches smaller the cost of the motor will be xyz% cheaper than a 410, and you are very mistaken. Most of the money spent on building a motor is spent via the machinists' time. I've built motors LS motors for my little truck and I can tell you with absolute certainty that the cost to square up 305 block is the same as the cost to square up a 410 block. Pistons for a 305 are going to be within pennies of the same cost of a 410. The difference $30,000 difference between a 305 motor and a 410 is mostly the time and labor the machinist puts into it. Yeah, you are minus the titanium parts and such, but it's against the rules to knife edge a crank in a 305, that's hours of work that a 305 motor wouldn't have charged against it. There are countless more examples.

Case in point if you can do all the same stuff to a top tier 360 than you can do to a top tier 410 then the cost is going to be the same if not more because they will try to wrap it even tighter.


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:45 am 
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kossuth wrote:
NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
Dirttrackracing wrote:
Hate to tell you guys this, but if you eliminate 410s completely what happens to 360s? The 360s become the big guy stuff just like the 410s have become, the motors go up in price (Economics), and the 360s become exactly what the 410s were only the cars are slower. Not even considering any other fact like high $$$$$ teams spending more to be faster than everyone else etc.

410s are not going away anytime soon.



I think 360's would be and stay a lot cheaper than a 410. The 360's would be running spec motors all over the United States. Lots of competition for the car owners dollar. Not many 410's in comparison to 360's right now, and not many options for a car owner. The handwriting is on the wall for 358's. Once the 360's take the place of the 358's the dominoes will start to fall and the 410 will be no more. Some believe the WoO and the Grove control sprint racing. I believe that theory will be proven wrong. The WoO will either follow suit or will not exist. Another follow the leader race at the Grove last night. 410 racing has hit rock bottom in my opinion.
Disagree. Unless you go with a straight up crate motor class (won't happen) the 360 motors will become just as if not more expensive than the 410 motors for folks to compete with. People will do all the same work plus even more to a 360 in the attempt to get more HP out of it. When you have independent builders building motors for the top tier of competition the demand and the competition between the builders is what is going to control the price, not the fact that the motor is 50 cubic inches smaller. You think that because it is 50 cubic inches smaller the cost of the motor will be xyz% cheaper than a 410, and you are very mistaken. Most of the money spent on building a motor is spent via the machinists' time. I've built motors LS motors for my little truck and I can tell you with absolute certainty that the cost to square up 305 block is the same as the cost to square up a 410 block. Pistons for a 305 are going to be within pennies of the same cost of a 410. The difference $30,000 difference between a 305 motor and a 410 is mostly the time and labor the machinist puts into it. Yeah, you are minus the titanium parts and such, but it's against the rules to knife edge a crank in a 305, that's hours of work that a 305 motor wouldn't have charged against it. There are countless more examples.

Case in point if you can do all the same stuff to a top tier 360 than you can do to a top tier 410 then the cost is going to be the same if not more because they will try to wrap it even tighter.


I'm not an expert on motors by any means, but if all 360's run an ASCS SPEC HEAD, wouldn't that kind of cancel out a ton of what can be done to a motor as far as pistons, cams and valve trains. I mean you only have so much clearance to work with till things are going to get bent and broke. Much longer motor life for a 360 also is a factor.



ASCS Engine Rules

360 Cubic Inches: plus 1% maximum displacement (360 plus 1% = 363.6).

No aluminum blocks. No Titanium in engines, excluding valves and valve retainers.

Injectors: 2 3/16 inch maximum inside diameter of injector stack - 2.187 at least 3 inches in length. Note: Larger injectors may be used, but sleeves a minimum of 3 inches in length must be installed in stacks above the Butterflies. No relief hole may be drilled above the Butterfly on any injector. No Alteration of injector manifold mounting holes will be allowed.

Due to manufacturing process some injector stacks may be slightly larger. There will be a tolerance of .005 allowed on no more than 3 stacks. No throttle body or plenum type injectors allowed, No down nozzle injectors.

No timed fuel injectors will be allowed. Electronic fuel injection shall not be allowed. Only one injector nozzle and one injector line per cylinder.

Injection unit shall have one shaft operated butterfly per cylinder. The immediate area of the butterfly must be round. No slide or barrel type injectors will be allowed.

Spec Heads: Brodix Chevrolet Style Heads part # 27-211, #27223, and #27-222 with ASCS stamp may not have any performance-enhancing alterations in any way. Intake opening no larger than original opening, the only exception being, inlet opening may be ground or polished 3/4 inches or no further into port than the closest edge of the closest letter of the ASCS logo. During this polishing the left side of the letter "A" is sometimes inadvertently brushed with polish wheel. This is permissible as long as letter is still intact. During polishing of inlet port sometimes polish marks may go slightly further than the 3/4 inch. Intake port at no time may exceed 215 cubic centimeters.

Spec Heads: Brodix Ford Style Heads part # 27-233 with ASCS stamp may not have any performance-enhancing alterations in any way. Intake opening must be 2.150 inches tall by 1.300 inches wide. Intake port polishing will be allowed no more than a 1 1/2 inchs below the bottom of the original seat ring on the back side of the bowl area and no more than 1 inch on the short side. Polishing will be allowed in the combustion chamber area to avoid hot spot chafing. Polishing will be allowed in the exhaust ports as long as the original ASCS logo is not affected or port shape is not altered substantially. Intake port at no time may exceed 200 cubic centimeters. Please note that the intake port is for a Fel-Pro #1262, or equivalent, gasket.

Intake port polishing (on both the Chevrolet and Ford) will be allowed no more than 1 1/2 inches below the bottom of the original seat ring on the back side of the bowl area and no more than 1 inch on the short side. Polishing will be allowed in the combustion chamber area to avoid hot spot chaffing. Polishing will be allowed in exhaust ports as long as the original "ASCS" logo is not affected or port shape is not altered substantially.
Absolutely no intake or exhaust port relocation, raising, enlargement or reshaping of any type. Valve angle and placement may not be altered in any way on the ASCS spec head or on any other head. ASCS checking fixtures to check the above specifications and dimensions will be used by sanctioned ASCS tracks.

Any internally repaired ASCS spec head must be re-certified by Brodix.

All spec heads must remain within 1 degree of the original manufacturing.

Penalty for altered spec head will be subject to suspension, for one calendar year. Forfeit all points and moneys won, during the race which the infraction was found, and subject to a $500 fine that must be paid to ASCS before reinstatement. Intake port at no time may exceed 215 cubic centimeters for the Chevrolet and only 200 cubic centimeters for the Fords.

All oil pans must have inspection plug, pans without plug will be subject to pan removal at anytime.

No Turban driven, Turbo or blower will be allowed.

Only two valves and one spark plug per cylinder allowed. No big blocks.

No computer operated or controlled parts, such as fuel injections, fuel systems, crank trigger switches in the cockpit, chassis adjusting systems, shocks, etc.

No offset motors will be allowed, engine must be directly in front of driver. Driver must straddle drive-line.

Any car changing a motor after taking an official green flag will start at tail of its qualified group of "A" Main cars

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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:32 pm 
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You think you have follow the leader racing now wait until you put them in cookie cutter cars that 20 out of the 24 drivers in the race can handle hammer down.


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:35 pm 
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Lets go line by line on this.
Quote:
ASCS Engine Rules

360 Cubic Inches: plus 1% maximum displacement (360 plus 1% = 363.6).


So folks will take the motors right to 363.6 right off the bat to get the most out of them just like they do now with the current 410. One and done.

Quote:
No aluminum blocks. No Titanium in engines, excluding valves and valve retainers.

High end steel valve retainers are $150 for a SBC. Here is a link. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-1732-16 Now lets compare a similiar set of retainers made of titanium are $300. Here is the link. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-732-16

Limiting what you can use for a retainer is about as smart for both longevity and cost savings as saying regular plexiglass is a suitable replacement for your windshield. Will it work? Sure, but that's just all around bad juju.

As for the steel vs aluminum block, I have no idea what the cost difference is (I'm sure neither is cheap) but there is an advantage to having an aluminum block. An aluminum block can be easily repaired, where a cast iron block can't be as easily repaired. That and the aluminum blocks can be resleeved and reused.

Quote:
Spec Heads: Brodix Chevrolet Style Heads part # 27-211, #27223, and #27-222 with ASCS stamp may not have any performance-enhancing alterations in any way. Intake opening no larger than original opening, the only exception being, inlet opening may be ground or polished 3/4 inches or no further into port than the closest edge of the closest letter of the ASCS logo. During this polishing the left side of the letter "A" is sometimes inadvertently brushed with polish wheel. This is permissible as long as letter is still intact. During polishing of inlet port sometimes polish marks may go slightly further than the 3/4 inch. Intake port at no time may exceed 215 cubic centimeters.

Spec Heads: Brodix Ford Style Heads part # 27-233 with ASCS stamp may not have any performance-enhancing alterations in any way. Intake opening must be 2.150 inches tall by 1.300 inches wide. Intake port polishing will be allowed no more than a 1 1/2 inchs below the bottom of the original seat ring on the back side of the bowl area and no more than 1 inch on the short side. Polishing will be allowed in the combustion chamber area to avoid hot spot chafing. Polishing will be allowed in the exhaust ports as long as the original ASCS logo is not affected or port shape is not altered substantially. Intake port at no time may exceed 200 cubic centimeters. Please note that the intake port is for a Fel-Pro #1262, or equivalent, gasket.

Intake port polishing (on both the Chevrolet and Ford) will be allowed no more than 1 1/2 inches below the bottom of the original seat ring on the back side of the bowl area and no more than 1 inch on the short side. Polishing will be allowed in the combustion chamber area to avoid hot spot chaffing. Polishing will be allowed in exhaust ports as long as the original "ASCS" logo is not affected or port shape is not altered substantially.
Absolutely no intake or exhaust port relocation, raising, enlargement or reshaping of any type. Valve angle and placement may not be altered in any way on the ASCS spec head or on any other head. ASCS checking fixtures to check the above specifications and dimensions will be used by sanctioned ASCS tracks.

Any internally repaired ASCS spec head must be re-certified by Brodix.

All spec heads must remain within 1 degree of the original manufacturing.


So rather than just letting the guys run heads and castings that are already what they want, you are going to make it so that they do things like offset mill the head with the intent to get a better injector to valve angle (they have wiggle room per the rule, you know they will push it). The rule says "performance altering". Well, does an alteration give a motor an advantage? Pretty tough one to call if you even find it. Rules that state significant alteration means that alteration is allowed. So what does significant mean? That's a hell of a question and do you want to be that tech guy that says "sorry load it back on the trailer" on something that is a judgement call vs black and white?

Also, the CC guidance on heads is a half truth in regards to its intent. They limit the head volume with the intent to keep people from running big cams. The volume is measured in CCs (cubic centimeters) and is an indication of how much volume the port has. Think of it this way, they measure it by essentially doing a liquid volume test kinda like a kitchen measuring cup. There are a couple of ways to fake it out and actually have larger ports. Ok, so as the rule maker you tell the competitors, "you can port the heads all you want, just don't exceed 215 CC in volume on the intake runner". The reality of it all is guys will spend 100s and 100s of hours on flowbenches trashing dozens of castings trying to figure out how they can get the air to behave differently at this RPM band or this or that and remain inside the 215 CC limit. What comes quick to mind is recessing the intake valve farther back in the seat and making up the lost compression by milling the head to the minimum spec and run a super thin Cometic head gasket to bring your quench down as much as possible. This would have two benefits. Getting the port volume up and also allowing you to run a shorter valve stem reducing valvetrain weight. (custom valves.... That means more $$$$$)

Hell, lets run with this for a minute..... The rules don't say anything about the out of bore measurements for the pistons. Score... I would just recess the valves back, mill the head down as far as you can and offset it that 1 degree to get a better injector angle, open the ports up, run a super tight head gasket, and run the piston .015 out of bore running the pistons above the deck and you can easily get a super large port without breaking the 215 CC limit.

Hold on there aren't any bottom end restrictions here with the exception of titanium. So lets see what we can do here and stay within the rules. Bottom end weight is huge so let's start playing around there. Well, we can go with some ultra lightweight connecting rods that may scatter or win us a feature or two. What the hell. They are only $540 a pop or $4300 for the set... http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-6612521qls Or I could run with a safer but less power promoting setup for $460 a pop or $3700 for the set. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-6612521

Thus this is many of our collective points here. The top dogs are going to find ways around these rules by spending the money needed to do the research and development. So lets say a fellow that follow the letter the letter and the intent of the rule makes 700 hp on his motor. Ok, that's great. Now lets take another fellow that has met the letter of the rule, but most certainly is not meeting the intent of it. He is making 750 hp. 50 hp doesn't seem like much, but when you break it down thats darn near a 8% difference power, which can be huge at the end of the straights at your 1/2 miles tracks. Now, the difference by being 50 hp down on a 410 that makes 850 vs another that makes 900 isn't nearly as striking a difference at 6%.

Honestly, other than the injection stuff (which I honestly don't totally understand) the rules regarding the 410's and the 360's are fairly close with the exception of the head and the block rule. Everything else is right in line to be honest.

http://www.williamsgrove.com/410358rules.htm

Quote:
Only two valves and one spark plug per cylinder allowed. No big blocks.

No computer operated or controlled parts, such as fuel injections, fuel systems, crank trigger switches in the cockpit, chassis adjusting systems, shocks, etc.

I get the whole no driver operated weight jackers and such, but why no computer based fuel injection? This baffles me to be honest. Computer controlled fuel injection is just a win-win as far as longevity, horsepower, and economy. Stock GM LS computers I'm sure are up to the task of this and are abundant in salvage yards and parts stores. http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Catal ... 0344396800

In any event I think I've made my case there there would be no significant cost savings if all the local big dogs went from running 410's to 360's. They are still going to outspend the small guys and will actually distance them even more.

If costs are truly getting out of line, there are better ways to curtail the costs then that.


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 4:39 pm 
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kossuth wrote:
Lets go line by line on this.
Quote:
ASCS Engine Rules

360 Cubic Inches: plus 1% maximum displacement (360 plus 1% = 363.6).


So folks will take the motors right to 363.6 right off the bat to get the most out of them just like they do now with the current 410. One and done.

Quote:
No aluminum blocks. No Titanium in engines, excluding valves and valve retainers.

High end steel valve retainers are $150 for a SBC. Here is a link. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-1732-16 Now lets compare a similiar set of retainers made of titanium are $300. Here is the link. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-732-16

Limiting what you can use for a retainer is about as smart for both longevity and cost savings as saying regular plexiglass is a suitable replacement for your windshield. Will it work? Sure, but that's just all around bad juju.

As for the steel vs aluminum block, I have no idea what the cost difference is (I'm sure neither is cheap) but there is an advantage to having an aluminum block. An aluminum block can be easily repaired, where a cast iron block can't be as easily repaired. That and the aluminum blocks can be resleeved and reused.

Quote:
Spec Heads: Brodix Chevrolet Style Heads part # 27-211, #27223, and #27-222 with ASCS stamp may not have any performance-enhancing alterations in any way. Intake opening no larger than original opening, the only exception being, inlet opening may be ground or polished 3/4 inches or no further into port than the closest edge of the closest letter of the ASCS logo. During this polishing the left side of the letter "A" is sometimes inadvertently brushed with polish wheel. This is permissible as long as letter is still intact. During polishing of inlet port sometimes polish marks may go slightly further than the 3/4 inch. Intake port at no time may exceed 215 cubic centimeters.

Spec Heads: Brodix Ford Style Heads part # 27-233 with ASCS stamp may not have any performance-enhancing alterations in any way. Intake opening must be 2.150 inches tall by 1.300 inches wide. Intake port polishing will be allowed no more than a 1 1/2 inchs below the bottom of the original seat ring on the back side of the bowl area and no more than 1 inch on the short side. Polishing will be allowed in the combustion chamber area to avoid hot spot chafing. Polishing will be allowed in the exhaust ports as long as the original ASCS logo is not affected or port shape is not altered substantially. Intake port at no time may exceed 200 cubic centimeters. Please note that the intake port is for a Fel-Pro #1262, or equivalent, gasket.

Intake port polishing (on both the Chevrolet and Ford) will be allowed no more than 1 1/2 inches below the bottom of the original seat ring on the back side of the bowl area and no more than 1 inch on the short side. Polishing will be allowed in the combustion chamber area to avoid hot spot chaffing. Polishing will be allowed in exhaust ports as long as the original "ASCS" logo is not affected or port shape is not altered substantially.
Absolutely no intake or exhaust port relocation, raising, enlargement or reshaping of any type. Valve angle and placement may not be altered in any way on the ASCS spec head or on any other head. ASCS checking fixtures to check the above specifications and dimensions will be used by sanctioned ASCS tracks.

Any internally repaired ASCS spec head must be re-certified by Brodix.

All spec heads must remain within 1 degree of the original manufacturing.


So rather than just letting the guys run heads and castings that are already what they want, you are going to make it so that they do things like offset mill the head with the intent to get a better injector to valve angle (they have wiggle room per the rule, you know they will push it). The rule says "performance altering". Well, does an alteration give a motor an advantage? Pretty tough one to call if you even find it. Rules that state significant alteration means that alteration is allowed. So what does significant mean? That's a hell of a question and do you want to be that tech guy that says "sorry load it back on the trailer" on something that is a judgement call vs black and white?

Also, the CC guidance on heads is a half truth in regards to its intent. They limit the head volume with the intent to keep people from running big cams. The volume is measured in CCs (cubic centimeters) and is an indication of how much volume the port has. Think of it this way, they measure it by essentially doing a liquid volume test kinda like a kitchen measuring cup. There are a couple of ways to fake it out and actually have larger ports. Ok, so as the rule maker you tell the competitors, "you can port the heads all you want, just don't exceed 215 CC in volume on the intake runner". The reality of it all is guys will spend 100s and 100s of hours on flowbenches trashing dozens of castings trying to figure out how they can get the air to behave differently at this RPM band or this or that and remain inside the 215 CC limit. What comes quick to mind is recessing the intake valve farther back in the seat and making up the lost compression by milling the head to the minimum spec and run a super thin Cometic head gasket to bring your quench down as much as possible. This would have two benefits. Getting the port volume up and also allowing you to run a shorter valve stem reducing valvetrain weight. (custom valves.... That means more $$$$$)

Hell, lets run with this for a minute..... The rules don't say anything about the out of bore measurements for the pistons. Score... I would just recess the valves back, mill the head down as far as you can and offset it that 1 degree to get a better injector angle, open the ports up, run a super tight head gasket, and run the piston .015 out of bore running the pistons above the deck and you can easily get a super large port without breaking the 215 CC limit.

Hold on there aren't any bottom end restrictions here with the exception of titanium. So lets see what we can do here and stay within the rules. Bottom end weight is huge so let's start playing around there. Well, we can go with some ultra lightweight connecting rods that may scatter or win us a feature or two. What the hell. They are only $540 a pop or $4300 for the set... http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-6612521qls Or I could run with a safer but less power promoting setup for $460 a pop or $3700 for the set. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-6612521

Thus this is many of our collective points here. The top dogs are going to find ways around these rules by spending the money needed to do the research and development. So lets say a fellow that follow the letter the letter and the intent of the rule makes 700 hp on his motor. Ok, that's great. Now lets take another fellow that has met the letter of the rule, but most certainly is not meeting the intent of it. He is making 750 hp. 50 hp doesn't seem like much, but when you break it down thats darn near a 8% difference power, which can be huge at the end of the straights at your 1/2 miles tracks. Now, the difference by being 50 hp down on a 410 that makes 850 vs another that makes 900 isn't nearly as striking a difference at 6%.

Honestly, other than the injection stuff (which I honestly don't totally understand) the rules regarding the 410's and the 360's are fairly close with the exception of the head and the block rule. Everything else is right in line to be honest.

http://www.williamsgrove.com/410358rules.htm

Quote:
Only two valves and one spark plug per cylinder allowed. No big blocks.

No computer operated or controlled parts, such as fuel injections, fuel systems, crank trigger switches in the cockpit, chassis adjusting systems, shocks, etc.

I get the whole no driver operated weight jackers and such, but why no computer based fuel injection? This baffles me to be honest. Computer controlled fuel injection is just a win-win as far as longevity, horsepower, and economy. Stock GM LS computers I'm sure are up to the task of this and are abundant in salvage yards and parts stores. http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Catal ... 0344396800

In any event I think I've made my case there there would be no significant cost savings if all the local big dogs went from running 410's to 360's. They are still going to outspend the small guys and will actually distance them even more.

If costs are truly getting out of line, there are better ways to curtail the costs then that.


I'm glad that you made your case for yourself! :thumbright:

Frankly I don't know what print your referring to?????????????????????????????

Sure isn't anything that I copied out of the ASCS rule book!

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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:11 pm 
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NEWBOMB TURK wrote:

I'm glad that you made your case for yourself! :thumbright:

Frankly I don't know what print your referring to?????????????????????????????

Sure isn't anything that I copied out of the ASCS rule book!
Umm????? It was your post that I was referencing. I should have known better than try to have a reasonable conversation with you. Have a good one.


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:11 am 
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kossuth wrote:
NEWBOMB TURK wrote:

I'm glad that you made your case for yourself! :thumbright:

Frankly I don't know what print your referring to?????????????????????????????

Sure isn't anything that I copied out of the ASCS rule book!
Umm????? It was your post that I was referencing. I should have known better than try to have a reasonable conversation with you. Have a good one.


Spec Heads: Brodix Chevrolet Style Heads part # 27-211, #27223, and #27-222 with ASCS stamp may not have any performance-enhancing alterations in any way.

Any internally repaired ASCS spec head must be re-certified by Brodix.

All spec heads must remain within 1 degree of the original manufacturing.


I find those statements to be very clear.

How you could write what you wrote after reading that is baffling.

I would imagine that having ones own interpretation of clearly stated rules is why there are so many fines and disciplinary actions taken in NASCAR

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The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all.
Gilbert K. Chesterton


Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.
Mark Twain


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:41 am 
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Ok, lets do this again.

NEWBOMB TURK wrote:

Spec Heads: Brodix Chevrolet Style Heads part # 27-211, #27223, and #27-222 with ASCS stamp may not have any performance-enhancing alterations in any way.

Any internally repaired ASCS spec head must be re-certified by Brodix.

All spec heads must remain within 1 degree of the original manufacturing.


I find those statements to be very clear.

I agree it is clear to a person that is following the letter and the intent of the rules. Now, lets visit reality where there are people that work to gain every advantage possible. You have to prove that an alteration to the head benefits performance. How are you going to do that? Take the motor and send it back to ASCS? Do they even have the ability to determine if something has been done with intent to skim over the rules in the way I am suggesting? If all they are doing is a CC measurement then they are going to get away with it. There is no limitation of how fast you can get the air into the motor. So lets say they issue penalties to team Smith. The motor dynos out higher than expected and they see something that looks strange in the heads but the heads otherwise check out. Could you imagine the backlash from fans, teams that are doing similar, and so on. That's like finding somebody guilty of a crime that a law hasn't been created for yet. Unless they are flow benching every set of heads against a baseline when they tech them ($$$$$) then they have no idea whats going on. Hell, there is no mention in the rules of how much airflow on a bench is permissible, that would be the beginning of he argument. Even if they did a team can argue that they didn't know this modification would benefit performance, they just wanted to run this part or that part because they got it cheap would be the argument. When you allow some alteration you now open Pandora's box. Being you somehow have to enforce what is and isn't authorized. It isn't as simple the teams can do this or that and that's it. There is no written book on how to be creative.

Quote:
How you could write what you wrote after reading that is baffling.

I would imagine that having ones own interpretation of clearly stated rules is why there are so many fines and disciplinary actions taken in NASCAR

And yet there are about 1/2 a dozen teams every year that get busted for this or that. I have never been in a NASCAR garage or anything but I suspect for everytime they get caught they get away with things dozens if not 100s of times without getting caught. The ASCS isn't NASCAR and I'm sure only has a fraction of their technical abilities. So if guys get away with stuff in NASCAR (why are certain teams always up front regardless of the driver?) I hate to think how to enforce it at Williams Grove, Lincoln, Port Royal, or Selins Grove.

I agree with you in principle, but the reality is these guys are competitors. Some will do everything within the spirit of the rules, and have a harder time being competitive up front. Some will ignore the spirit and only look at what is in black and white to gain an advantage. They will usually finish up front. Thus we come back to the original problem. He who has the most money always wins.


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:33 am 
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I dont normally chime into this stuff, but there seems to be a lot of misconceptions and misinformation out here.

The 360 divisions are taking over the country and there is a reason why.....cost. 410 heads $9000+....360 heads (modified to the extent of the "gray area") $3900 including ti valves and retainers. Aluminum 410 blocks are $5000 bare with no machining, 360 blocks $2700 race ready. These 2 items alone net a $7400 savings. Down nozzles are also an additonal $2000 per engine so no we are close to 10 grand with all else being equal (LW cranks rods etc.).

The average life of a 410 between rebuilds is 12 races compared to 30 or more for a 360. In a 50 race season that can save about another $10000 per year. If you look at every engine builder in the country you will see an average of $20000 less cost for a top of the line 360 engine from Roush to Gearte to Ott Rider Shaver etc.

Now the power side of things. Once you spin the tires or pull out of the throttle you are not using the power you have so why pay for it. Most people wont believe this but teams are actually taking power out of the motors in an effort to hook up the car. If I drop 70 hp (at 7500 rpm that is actually only about 30ft/lb of torque) and I can keep my foot into it longer the car will go faster. If the tires are not spinning but rather staying hooked, the car will go faster. We have reached a point when the laws of physics are taking control and I dont know of any motor part that can change that. A car only has a certain contact area between the tires and the clay. Rubber has a given amount of frictional cooefficient to provide. Once your corner speed takes you beyond that, more power only makes things worse because once that cooefficient is surpassed you actually need to go way below it for the tire to hook back up. Donny won a lot of races on summertime tracks using a way smaller motor than a 410...as do a lot of people. This is the true beauty between dirt and asphalt racing. It is not always whats under the hood but how much you can apply that power to the track. We dont run dynos around the track so it doesnt really matter what the engine does there and most people never race a motor at the peak dyno settings....they are almost always de-tuned to perform on the track. There are very few hammer down wet tacky tracks that can allow the use of all that is made. Been to a good top fuel dragster race lately....basically if you dont spin the tires or blow up you win. The same is becoming true for 410 sprint cars...they are making more power than they can physically apply to the track so the guy that doesn't spin the tires is running up front which is why the motor making the most power very rarely wins the race anymore. 5-10 years ago yes but not now.

360 divisions have also produced some of the best racing in the country for years now and will be the future. If you look at tracks that are running them as the headline show they did it due to car counts which have returned. The cost is out of control. Years ago when Deweese won 2 track titles in the same year Walt spent about $210000 and won back, including championship payout and sponsor money, $218000. The ROI just isnt there to support this. That would only work in congress.

Now this isn't meant to start a hurricane but rather provide some factual information. Saying 360s will not eventually take over, like they have accross the rest of the country for the main reason of cost, is like sticking to the world-is-flat theory the Columbus was fighting. It is happening to the point that NASCAR engine builders are getting into the business and these are facts that just cant be ingored....I dont know any building a 410 Hmmmmmmm. This is very high level discussion and to get into the nuts and bolts would take days and many cases of beer. Hope it helps clear some of the fog surrounding this topic though.


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:55 am 
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lchighperformance wrote:
I dont normally chime into this stuff, but there seems to be a lot of misconceptions and misinformation out here.

The 360 divisions are taking over the country and there is a reason why.....cost. 410 heads $9000+....360 heads (modified to the extent of the "gray area") $3900 including ti valves and retainers. Aluminum 410 blocks are $5000 bare with no machining, 360 blocks $2700 race ready. These 2 items alone net a $7400 savings. Down nozzles are also an additonal $2000 per engine so no we are close to 10 grand with all else being equal (LW cranks rods etc.).

The average life of a 410 between rebuilds is 12 races compared to 30 or more for a 360. In a 50 race season that can save about another $10000 per year. If you look at every engine builder in the country you will see an average of $20000 less cost for a top of the line 360 engine from Roush to Gearte to Ott Rider Shaver etc.

Now the power side of things. Once you spin the tires or pull out of the throttle you are not using the power you have so why pay for it. Most people wont believe this but teams are actually taking power out of the motors in an effort to hook up the car. If I drop 70 hp (at 7500 rpm that is actually only about 30ft/lb of torque) and I can keep my foot into it longer the car will go faster. If the tires are not spinning but rather staying hooked, the car will go faster. We have reached a point when the laws of physics are taking control and I dont know of any motor part that can change that. A car only has a certain contact area between the tires and the clay. Rubber has a given amount of frictional cooefficient to provide. Once your corner speed takes you beyond that, more power only makes things worse because once that cooefficient is surpassed you actually need to go way below it for the tire to hook back up. Donny won a lot of races on summertime tracks using a way smaller motor than a 410...as do a lot of people. This is the true beauty between dirt and asphalt racing. It is not always whats under the hood but how much you can apply that power to the track. We dont run dynos around the track so it doesnt really matter what the engine does there and most people never race a motor at the peak dyno settings....they are almost always de-tuned to perform on the track. There are very few hammer down wet tacky tracks that can allow the use of all that is made. Been to a good top fuel dragster race lately....basically if you dont spin the tires or blow up you win. The same is becoming true for 410 sprint cars...they are making more power than they can physically apply to the track so the guy that doesn't spin the tires is running up front which is why the motor making the most power very rarely wins the race anymore. 5-10 years ago yes but not now.

360 divisions have also produced some of the best racing in the country for years now and will be the future. If you look at tracks that are running them as the headline show they did it due to car counts which have returned. The cost is out of control. Years ago when Deweese won 2 track titles in the same year Walt spent about $210000 and won back, including championship payout and sponsor money, $218000. The ROI just isnt there to support this. That would only work in congress.

Now this isn't meant to start a hurricane but rather provide some factual information. Saying 360s will not eventually take over, like they have accross the rest of the country for the main reason of cost, is like sticking to the world-is-flat theory the Columbus was fighting. It is happening to the point that NASCAR engine builders are getting into the business and these are facts that just cant be ingored....I dont know any building a 410 Hmmmmmmm. This is very high level discussion and to get into the nuts and bolts would take days and many cases of beer. Hope it helps clear some of the fog surrounding this topic though.



Excellent post!

I'm a common sense kind of guy, and this appears to me to be common sense.

On the technical end of this you would lose me in a hurry.

I'm sure many on here have noticed a car losing a cylinder and not losing any speed on the track, and in fact I've seen some run faster!

_________________
This is the place where brilliant minds assemble to willfully pool ignorance with questionable logic in order to reach absurd conclusions.


The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all.
Gilbert K. Chesterton


Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.
Mark Twain


Last edited by NEWBOMB TURK on Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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