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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:57 am 
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lchighperformance wrote:
I dont normally chime into this stuff, but there seems to be a lot of misconceptions and misinformation out here.

The 360 divisions are taking over the country and there is a reason why.....cost. 410 heads $9000+....360 heads (modified to the extent of the "gray area") $3900 including ti valves and retainers. Aluminum 410 blocks are $5000 bare with no machining, 360 blocks $2700 race ready. These 2 items alone net a $7400 savings. Down nozzles are also an additonal $2000 per engine so no we are close to 10 grand with all else being equal (LW cranks rods etc.).

The average life of a 410 between rebuilds is 12 races compared to 30 or more for a 360. In a 50 race season that can save about another $10000 per year. If you look at every engine builder in the country you will see an average of $20000 less cost for a top of the line 360 engine from Roush to Gearte to Ott Rider Shaver etc.

Now the power side of things. Once you spin the tires or pull out of the throttle you are not using the power you have so why pay for it. Most people wont believe this but teams are actually taking power out of the motors in an effort to hook up the car. If I drop 70 hp (at 7500 rpm that is actually only about 30ft/lb of torque) and I can keep my foot into it longer the car will go faster. If the tires are not spinning but rather staying hooked, the car will go faster. We have reached a point when the laws of physics are taking control and I dont know of any motor part that can change that. A car only has a certain contact area between the tires and the clay. Rubber has a given amount of frictional cooefficient to provide. Once your corner speed takes you beyond that, more power only makes things worse because once that cooefficient is surpassed you actually need to go way below it for the tire to hook back up. Donny won a lot of races on summertime tracks using a way smaller motor than a 410...as do a lot of people. This is the true beauty between dirt and asphalt racing. It is not always whats under the hood but how much you can apply that power to the track. We dont run dynos around the track so it doesnt really matter what the engine does there and most people never race a motor at the peak dyno settings....they are almost always de-tuned to perform on the track. There are very few hammer down wet tacky tracks that can allow the use of all that is made. Been to a good top fuel dragster race lately....basically if you dont spin the tires or blow up you win. The same is becoming true for 410 sprint cars...they are making more power than they can physically apply to the track so the guy that doesn't spin the tires is running up front which is why the motor making the most power very rarely wins the race anymore. 5-10 years ago yes but not now.

360 divisions have also produced some of the best racing in the country for years now and will be the future. If you look at tracks that are running them as the headline show they did it due to car counts which have returned. The cost is out of control. Years ago when Deweese won 2 track titles in the same year Walt spent about $210000 and won back, including championship payout and sponsor money, $218000. The ROI just isnt there to support this. That would only work in congress.

Now this isn't meant to start a hurricane but rather provide some factual information. Saying 360s will not eventually take over, like they have accross the rest of the country for the main reason of cost, is like sticking to the world-is-flat theory the Columbus was fighting. It is happening to the point that NASCAR engine builders are getting into the business and these are facts that just cant be ingored....I dont know any building a 410 Hmmmmmmm. This is very high level discussion and to get into the nuts and bolts would take days and many cases of beer. Hope it helps clear some of the fog surrounding this topic though.
Well, I can tell you for sure that Roush/Yates does make a 410 motor. As for longevity, it seems like you're a smart guy so I'm sure you know that is subjective based on a couple dozen variables. There is a material difference between the current 410 and the 360 obviously, but I don't think the cost of the materials is the root cause of the issue. Yeah $10,000 is alot, but in the grand scheme of racing 50 times a year how much so is it compared to the rest of the operation? I'm sure it's not cheap, but is $10,000 going to be the difference between shuttering a program and being competitive and winning races? I'm not so sure either way.

Then we come back to my original question. How competitive is the A4MP vs the current platform? I have seen all the news articles and such but I have yet to hear if anybody has ever run one of these in their car and how competitive it is. A A4MP can be done up for about $20,000 and will run about 20-30 races using mostly off the shelf GM parts. http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/c ... ewall.html That right there would accomplish two things. Getting the costs down and preserving the traditions we have here in our area. It's an interesting conversation to have because there are multiple points to be had on all ends of this.


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:19 pm 
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Is anyone still even experimenting with the A4MP? I heard about this a couple years ago and thought it was very interesting but not sure it was tried around here. The website hasnt been updated since 2011 :thinking: maybe it wasnt as successful and competitive as originally thought :dontknow:


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:31 pm 
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BlueOnBlack21 wrote:
Is anyone still even experimenting with the A4MP? I heard about this a couple years ago and thought it was very interesting but not sure it was tried around here. The website hasnt been updated since 2011 :thinking: maybe it wasnt as successful and competitive as originally thought :dontknow:
Dunno....


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:24 am 
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for limited sprints to survive here...they might consider a rulebook that permits current 358, 360 and A4MP to run together and let the competitors choose the engine package that suits their wallet?

it just might bring the "low buck" guy back to the track...

_________________
Home of the OUTLAW A$$WHIPPERS
Lincoln = 1845 ft. = .35 mile T3=124 MPH
Eldora = 2287 ft. = .43 mile T3=135 MPH
Port = 2716 ft. = .51 mile T3=TBD
Grove = 2792 ft. = .53 mile T3=135 MPH
Selinsgrove = 2847 ft. = .54 mile T1=136 MPH

2013: 49 Races
Grove: 25 / Lincoln: 13 / Port: 2 / Susky: 4 / Selinsgrove: 2 / Eldora: 2 / Lima: 1


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:13 pm 
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lchighperformance wrote:
I dont normally chime into this stuff, but there seems to be a lot of misconceptions and misinformation out here. REALLY? THERES A SHOCKER :laughing7:

The 360 divisions are taking over the country and there is a reason why.....cost. 410 heads $9000+....360 heads (modified to the extent of the "gray area") $3900 including ti valves and retainers. Aluminum 410 blocks are $5000 bare with no machining, 360 blocks $2700 race ready. These 2 items alone net a $7400 savings. Down nozzles are also an additonal $2000 per engine so no we are close to 10 grand with all else being equal (LW cranks rods etc.).

The average life of a 410 between rebuilds is 12 races compared to 30 or more for a 360. In a 50 race season that can save about another $10000 per year. If you look at every engine builder in the country you will see an average of $20000 less cost for a top of the line 360 engine from Roush to Gearte to Ott Rider Shaver etc.

Now the power side of things. Once you spin the tires or pull out of the throttle you are not using the power you have so why pay for it. Most people wont believe this but teams are actually taking power out of the motors in an effort to hook up the car. If I drop 70 hp (at 7500 rpm that is actually only about 30ft/lb of torque) and I can keep my foot into it longer the car will go faster. If the tires are not spinning but rather staying hooked, the car will go faster. We have reached a point when the laws of physics are taking control and I dont know of any motor part that can change that. A car only has a certain contact area between the tires and the clay. Rubber has a given amount of frictional cooefficient to provide. Once your corner speed takes you beyond that, more power only makes things worse because once that cooefficient is surpassed you actually need to go way below it for the tire to hook back up. Donny won a lot of races on summertime tracks using a way smaller motor than a 410...as do a lot of people. This is the true beauty between dirt and asphalt racing. It is not always whats under the hood but how much you can apply that power to the track. We dont run dynos around the track so it doesnt really matter what the engine does there and most people never race a motor at the peak dyno settings....they are almost always de-tuned to perform on the track. There are very few hammer down wet tacky tracks that can allow the use of all that is made. Been to a good top fuel dragster race lately....basically if you dont spin the tires or blow up you win. The same is becoming true for 410 sprint cars...they are making more power than they can physically apply to the track so the guy that doesn't spin the tires is running up front which is why the motor making the most power very rarely wins the race anymore. 5-10 years ago yes but not now.

360 divisions have also produced some of the best racing in the country for years now and will be the future. If you look at tracks that are running them as the headline show they did it due to car counts which have returned. The cost is out of control. Years ago when Deweese won 2 track titles in the same year Walt spent about $210000 and won back, including championship payout and sponsor money, $218000. The ROI just isnt there to support this. That would only work in congress.

Now this isn't meant to start a hurricane but rather provide some factual information. Saying 360s will not eventually take over, like they have accross the rest of the country for the main reason of cost, is like sticking to the world-is-flat theory the Columbus was fighting. It is happening to the point that NASCAR engine builders are getting into the business and these are facts that just cant be ingored....I dont know any building a 410 Hmmmmmmm. This is very high level discussion and to get into the nuts and bolts would take days and many cases of beer. Hope it helps clear some of the fog surrounding this topic though.

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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:15 pm 
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I peek in on most every thread here for some entertainment and sometimes to learn some things.,
freakin head blew up when I started readin this mess :laughing7:
#overwhelmed
yes a just hashtagged
:poking:
:bdf: :bdf:

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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:35 pm 
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BigRightRear wrote:
for limited sprints to survive here...they might consider a rulebook that permits current 358, 360 and A4MP to run together and let the competitors choose the engine package that suits their wallet?

it just might bring the "low buck" guy back to the track...


We already know how the 358/360 fare against one another. Promoters did a poor job on keeping 358's a limited class. As a result they priced themselves to the brink of extinction. Looks like this A4MP is a flop, as no news has surfaced in 2 years.
Looks like the 360 will win out and replace not only the 358 but also the current 410. It's happening all over the country, so it's just a matter of time here. Looks like you'll need a new hobby if 360's don't float your boat. I'd try 600 micro's. They are currently the hot ticket since the 1200cc mini sprint became extinct. :handoverhead:

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The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all.
Gilbert K. Chesterton


Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.
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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:48 pm 
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This year marks my 30th anniversary as a sprint car fan. This conversation has persisted throughout most of those 30 years.


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:42 am 
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NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
BigRightRear wrote:
for limited sprints to survive here...they might consider a rulebook that permits current 358, 360 and A4MP to run together and let the competitors choose the engine package that suits their wallet?

it just might bring the "low buck" guy back to the track...


We already know how the 358/360 fare against one another. Promoters did a poor job on keeping 358's a limited class. As a result they priced themselves to the brink of extinction. Looks like this A4MP is a flop, as no news has surfaced in 2 years.
Looks like the 360 will win out and replace not only the 358 but also the current 410. It's happening all over the country, so it's just a matter of time here. Looks like you'll need a new hobby if 360's don't float your boat. I'd try 600 micro's. They are currently the hot ticket since the 1200cc mini sprint became extinct. :handoverhead:

:naughty: In the last 3 years name one track or sanction body that switched from 410 to 360.

_________________
2014 RACE COUNT
2-Brownstown,in
3- LAWRENCEBURG,In
13-KOKOMO,IN
1-Haubstadt,in
1-MONTPILIER,IN
0-Anderson,in
4-GAS CITY,in
9-PUTNAMVILLE,IN
3-BLOOMINGTON,IN
1-QUINCY,IL
1-Waynesfield,oh
1-LINCOLN,IL
1-Terre Haute,in
3-Rossburg,oh
0-Pontoon beach,IL
1-DANVILLE,IL
1-Paragon,In
1-LIBERTY,In
1-INDY MILE,In
17-different tracks,3 states

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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:02 am 
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AERO410SCJA wrote:
NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
BigRightRear wrote:
for limited sprints to survive here...they might consider a rulebook that permits current 358, 360 and A4MP to run together and let the competitors choose the engine package that suits their wallet?

it just might bring the "low buck" guy back to the track...


We already know how the 358/360 fare against one another. Promoters did a poor job on keeping 358's a limited class. As a result they priced themselves to the brink of extinction. Looks like this A4MP is a flop, as no news has surfaced in 2 years.
Looks like the 360 will win out and replace not only the 358 but also the current 410. It's happening all over the country, so it's just a matter of time here. Looks like you'll need a new hobby if 360's don't float your boat. I'd try 600 micro's. They are currently the hot ticket since the 1200cc mini sprint became extinct. :handoverhead:

:naughty: In the last 3 years name one track or sanction body that switched from 410 to 360.


Really don't know??????????????????????????????????

Interesting that you said last three years??????????????????????????????????

A lot have already made the switch!

Look at the Woo schedule!

A lot of races on tracks that run 360's on a regular basis or no sprints at all.

How come we now have a 360's nationals at Knoxville that gets more cars than the 410's????????????????????????

I'll have to look into this more, but I'm thinking 360's are the headline division at Knoxville.

_________________
This is the place where brilliant minds assemble to willfully pool ignorance with questionable logic in order to reach absurd conclusions.


The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all.
Gilbert K. Chesterton


Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.
Mark Twain


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:36 am 
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racindad88 wrote:
freakin head blew up when I started readin this mess :laughing7:
#overwhelmed
yes a just hashtagged
:poking:
:bdf: :bdf:
LOL. We are all fans at the end of the day my friend and just want to see the sport continue as healthy as possible. Some of us are pretty fanatical though. :laughing7:


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:01 am 
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NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
I'd try 600 micro's. They are currently the hot ticket since the 1200cc mini sprint became extinct. :handoverhead:



I believe 600s car counts are in worse shape than 358s these days.

_________________
Home of the OUTLAW A$$WHIPPERS
Lincoln = 1845 ft. = .35 mile T3=124 MPH
Eldora = 2287 ft. = .43 mile T3=135 MPH
Port = 2716 ft. = .51 mile T3=TBD
Grove = 2792 ft. = .53 mile T3=135 MPH
Selinsgrove = 2847 ft. = .54 mile T1=136 MPH

2013: 49 Races
Grove: 25 / Lincoln: 13 / Port: 2 / Susky: 4 / Selinsgrove: 2 / Eldora: 2 / Lima: 1


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:11 am 
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BigRightRear wrote:
NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
I'd try 600 micro's. They are currently the hot ticket since the 1200cc mini sprint became extinct. :handoverhead:



I believe 600s car counts are in worse shape than 358s these days.


it depends on the track and if it is winged or wingless.
places like trailways and lindas that run winged are losing cars. lanco seems to be pretty steady but the tracks and shows that run wingless are picking up cars.....kutztown had over 30 a night, more for larger money races, greenwood has a good winged base but also has nice draws when he runs wingless specials, hamlin has a very consistent field of non wing 600's every saturday, both rookie and "regular".

IMO......locally....the 305's are taking over the spot that the "limited" sprints once had (358's) and it seems to me that the 358-360's locally will merge and phase out the 358's.....and the 410 class will stay about the same, or perhaps grow a little....especially at places like lincoln where you dont need a killer motor to run up front.
i think the whole open wheel scene....270 micros to 410 sprints....are in a rebuilding and restructuring phase (including the midgets) they all have their problems and issues to work out but, as was said in a previous post....its the same issues that have been going on for years thru peaks and valleys. its just a matter of evolution where the strong will survive and prosper.


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:27 pm 
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This has been an excellent discussion! I have been around this "game" for 38-years, and as previous posts suggest, this debate is nothing new. When the rules were changed from big-block "run what you brung" to the 467 to the 410, the intent was to save major league sprint car racing for all time. I ask, has motor rule changes themselves done anything for car counts over the years? I also ask, what has remained constant over this same period of time? The answer is the 25 square foot wing!! I keep preaching and pushing anyone who will listen to decrease the size of the wing to 20 square feet and limit the height of the sideboards to about 6-inches less than it is today. As a previous post suggests, "if you can't put power to the ground - why pay for it?" Exactly!!! From a fans perspective the "racing" has never been the same since the switch was made to the 25-sq' wing. Yes, there have been good races but, I can probably count those on my hand compared the pre-1982 era. Wings are the quickest and most cost effective rules change that could be made to "save" 410 sprint car racing. The economy is bad, new rules cost teams money - money that they don't have. A wing change would be an initial expense but, a minimal one that would pay for itself over time with reduced engine maintenance and tire wear costs as a result of the reduced drag and downforce. I only wish I had the money to outfit a field of cars, rent a track, and promote a race with a 20-sq' wing and no tire rules - I think "racing" for all involved would get that "wow" factor back that has been so sorely lacking as we continue to swirl down the WoO drain. Just two cents from the peanut gallery!


God speed Kramer!


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 Post subject: Re: 358/360's
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:57 pm 
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Pink Panther wrote:
I only wish I had the money to outfit a field of cars, rent a track, and promote a race with no wings and no tire rules - I think "racing" for all involved would get that "wow" factor back that has been so sorely lacking as we continue to swirl down the WoO drain. Just two cents from the peanut gallery!


God speed Kramer!


fixed :mrgreen:


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