Who would have thought?

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Cobra
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Who would have thought?

Post by Cobra » Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:38 pm

If you went back 5 years and all the people petitioning for 360s (smaller "cheaper" engines) ...who would have thought that the 410s would have more than double the car count of the 358s...

Something is very wrong in the 358 cost structure...

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by BlueOnBlack21 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:21 pm

Who would have thought the grove would actually race on a rainy day. Maybe thats why the 358 count was down :dontknow:

Either way thanks grove for running tonight :clap:

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by Shuey21 » Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:20 am

358's will soon be gone plain and simple.
2015 Count: 50

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by pell021 » Sat Mar 29, 2014 12:52 am

Shuey21 wrote:358's will soon be gone plain and simple.
No doubt about it.
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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by Deez Nuts » Sat Mar 29, 2014 7:16 am

What was the support division before the 358s came around? Or was it a different division every week?

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by wentworth09w » Sat Mar 29, 2014 8:36 am

They could always run SLM weekly,
Although -- I'm not sure SLM would be very racey at WG.

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by Old Timer4 » Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:34 am

What was the support division before the 358s came around? Or was it a different division every week?


Hobby cars.
Green cars, peanuts & split tails in the pits...Who'd a thunk it.

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by kossuth » Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:40 am

Cobra wrote:If you went back 5 years and all the people petitioning for 360s (smaller "cheaper" engines) ...who would have thought that the 410s would have more than double the car count of the 358s...

Something is very wrong in the 358 cost structure...
The same thing that is wrong with the 358 structure is the same thing that is going to be wrong with the 360 structure. You can go racing with a 410 (albet motor refreshes not counted) for **** near the same amount of money you can go racing with a 358/360 with. That is what is wrong with the 358s. It costs about the same to go racing whether it is a 358/360/410 and you're racing for peanuts compared to the 410s. The math is pretty simple really. When you start opening up rules on the motors things get really expensive really quick because everybody looks for every advantage they can find, and the racers eventually price themselves out of the division.

Personally my belief is the best way to control motor costs and such is to institute a claim rule along with all the other motor rules too. Yeah, it would suck if you won and got your motor claimed for $XYZ price (The claim cost would have to be the target cost that the division is aiming at) but a lot of folks would definitely think twice before building a $25,000 super hot 305 if it can get claimed the first night for $12,000.

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by Deez Nuts » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:02 am

kossuth wrote:
Cobra wrote:If you went back 5 years and all the people petitioning for 360s (smaller "cheaper" engines) ...who would have thought that the 410s would have more than double the car count of the 358s...

Something is very wrong in the 358 cost structure...
The same thing that is wrong with the 358 structure is the same thing that is going to be wrong with the 360 structure. You can go racing with a 410 (albet motor refreshes not counted) for **** near the same amount of money you can go racing with a 358/360 with. That is what is wrong with the 358s. It costs about the same to go racing whether it is a 358/360/410 and you're racing for peanuts compared to the 410s. The math is pretty simple really. When you start opening up rules on the motors things get really expensive really quick because everybody looks for every advantage they can find, and the racers eventually price themselves out of the division.

Personally my belief is the best way to control motor costs and such is to institute a claim rule along with all the other motor rules too. Yeah, it would suck if you won and got your motor claimed for $XYZ price (The claim cost would have to be the target cost that the division is aiming at) but a lot of folks would definitely think twice before building a $25,000 super hot 305 if it can get claimed the first night for $12,000.
The problem with a claim rule is that no one has the guts to actually claim a motor. They know they will quickly be the enemy in the pits. It is kind of a D-bag move to claim a motor for half of what it's worth. The springs had the claim rule, I can't remember anyone ever claiming a motor.

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by NEWBOMB TURK » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:19 am

360's will rule the entire country it's just a matter of time. 410's are only in certain area's of the country. Pa, Ohio, Indiana, and California are the strongholds, but are fading.Why were 305, 358' and 360 classes started? Easy answer! Cost to run a 410 is too high. 358 rules were never enforced and they ran themselves out of business. Simple as that. I hope the 305's can keep things under control. ASCS rules are pretty straight forward and I don't see that getting out of hand. I know 410 die-hards don't won't to hear it and can't accept it, but absolutely nothing is being done to control costs. When the money is no longer available or the desire is gone to spend the money to field a 410, "the ball games over!" I watch the wingless 410's in Indiana on MAV TV as well as the ASCS. The ASCS have full fields. The wingess 410's are getting 14 to 18 cars on average from what I've been seeing. Great racing buttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.
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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by Rascal » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:49 am

Although it's early and the racing season just started, it's not looking good for the 358 division. When will the tracks say enough and replace them with another division.

Sprints
305's- Tracks can keep the cheaper purse payout
360's- May take away from the 410 car count depending on what tracks decide for the purse

Super Late Models- A purse similar to Selinsgrove and Port.

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by c4 » Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:29 pm

NEWBOMB TURK wrote:360's will rule the entire country it's just a matter of time. 410's are only in certain area's of the country. Pa, Ohio, Indiana, and California are the strongholds, but are fading.Why were 305, 358' and 360 classes started? Easy answer! Cost to run a 410 is too high. 358 rules were never enforced and they ran themselves out of business. Simple as that. I hope the 305's can keep things under control. ASCS rules are pretty straight forward and I don't see that getting out of hand. I know 410 die-hards don't won't to hear it and can't accept it, but absolutely nothing is being done to control costs. When the money is no longer available or the desire is gone to spend the money to field a 410, "the ball games over!" I watch the wingless 410's in Indiana on MAV TV as well as the ASCS. The ASCS have full fields. The wingess 410's are getting 14 to 18 cars on average from what I've been seeing. Great racing buttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.

as far as the wingless cars go, part of the reason for lower car counts is that friday and saturday nights there are at least 2 tracks running within an hour to an hour and a half. factor in kokomo as the only track running on sundays but has a rep for being a very tough weekly program that attracts more of the "full time" teams than the "hobby" racer, that splits up the available cars between around 6 possible places to race every weekend.
a more realistic way to get a true car count is to see how many cars show up for an mscs or kiss series race (or even a usac show, but they tend to attact the higher budget teams.)

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by kossuth » Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:37 pm

Deez Nuts wrote: The problem with a claim rule is that no one has the guts to actually claim a motor. They know they will quickly be the enemy in the pits. It is kind of a D-bag move to claim a motor for half of what it's worth. The springs had the claim rule, I can't remember anyone ever claiming a motor.
It might be a D-bag move, but would you build a $25,000 motor knowing some D-bag could claim it for $12,000? That's a pretty big hit to be taking. IMO the claim price should be median value of what the sanctioning body feels racers should be putting into the motor. The claim price should be paid in full to the person that loses the motor not the sanctioning body. This would give the racers a way of policing the costs themselves. Yeah race team X can put an additional $13,000 into their motors, but they would do so with a large risk.

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by kossuth » Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:56 pm

NEWBOMB TURK wrote:360's will rule the entire country it's just a matter of time. 410's are only in certain area's of the country. Pa, Ohio, Indiana, and California are the strongholds, but are fading.Why were 305, 358' and 360 classes started? Easy answer! Cost to run a 410 is too high. 358 rules were never enforced and they ran themselves out of business. Simple as that. I hope the 305's can keep things under control. ASCS rules are pretty straight forward and I don't see that getting out of hand. I know 410 die-hards don't won't to hear it and can't accept it, but absolutely nothing is being done to control costs. When the money is no longer available or the desire is gone to spend the money to field a 410, "the ball games over!" I watch the wingless 410's in Indiana on MAV TV as well as the ASCS. The ASCS have full fields. The wingess 410's are getting 14 to 18 cars on average from what I've been seeing. Great racing buttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.
I hope the 305 divisions keep themselves in check too. It seems to happen way too often that a good idea gets turned sideways and the whole thing just crashes and burns.

As for the 360s taking over, I don't think so. 410's are the top dogs and as long and the Outlaws run em they will be. Simple math on this they have top paying events (Kings Royal, Knoxville, National Open, and much more) that market will self regulate as long as they can keep people coming into the gates and keep the purses up. Even on the local level the 410 divisions will always pull in more sponsor dollars and get more attention from a sponsor base. But with the 410 divisions you can't pay peanuts for the purses. Which is a indicator of how healthy the area is financially.

Bottom line though is you can't run any of those cars for peanuts and the 360/358 division isn't really a bunch better than the 410s. You're still paying $40k+ for a motor. That's a ton of money. You can get into a 410 for about $50k (actually way cheaper). So ultimately how much are the 360 teams really saving over the 410 teams? While I'm sure it is cheaper to run a 360, I wonder which one is easier to stay out of the red with. The 410 or the 360? Yeah lower costs, but lower purses.

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by Cobra » Sat Mar 29, 2014 2:20 pm

For those hoping the 305s will stay affordable... I heard they are already at $25k motors..

Nothing replaces cubic inches for cheap HP.

the smaller the motor the more rpm turned to create HP, the more wear on the engine each lap.

It's only a matter of time before the rules will allow unlimited cubes, with a rpm and compression rule.
Last edited by Cobra on Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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