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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:16 pm 
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kossuth wrote:
Cobra wrote:
If you went back 5 years and all the people petitioning for 360s (smaller "cheaper" engines) ...who would have thought that the 410s would have more than double the car count of the 358s...

Something is very wrong in the 358 cost structure...
The same thing that is wrong with the 358 structure is the same thing that is going to be wrong with the 360 structure. You can go racing with a 410 (albet motor refreshes not counted) for **** near the same amount of money you can go racing with a 358/360 with. That is what is wrong with the 358s. It costs about the same to go racing whether it is a 358/360/410 and you're racing for peanuts compared to the 410s. The math is pretty simple really. When you start opening up rules on the motors things get really expensive really quick because everybody looks for every advantage they can find, and the racers eventually price themselves out of the division.

Personally my belief is the best way to control motor costs and such is to institute a claim rule along with all the other motor rules too. Yeah, it would suck if you won and got your motor claimed for $XYZ price (The claim cost would have to be the target cost that the division is aiming at) but a lot of folks would definitely think twice before building a $25,000 super hot 305 if it can get claimed the first night for $12,000.


I agree 100% with your first paragraph. As far as the motor costs, I believe the answer was the Shaver/Schatz motor that was developed a few years ago using stock GM parts; 20K for a 430 CI/700 HP motor that will last 25-30 races between rebuilds seems far more sensible than spending 35-40K for 358 or 360 motor. With the state of 358 and YES 360 racing(look at URC/ESS counts and tracks around the country like Eagle NE who dropped 360's), I don't know why no tracks or sanctions have tried to phase it in.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:56 pm 
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[quote="NEWBOMB TURK"]360's will rule the entire country it's just a matter of time. 410's are only in certain area's of the country. Pa, Ohio, Indiana, and California are the strongholds, but are fading.Why were 305, 358' and 360 classes started? Easy answer! Cost to run a 410 is too high. 358 rules were never enforced and they ran themselves out of business. Simple as that. I hope the 305's can keep things under control. ASCS rules are pretty straight forward and I don't see that getting out of hand. I know 410 die-hards don't won't to hear it and can't accept it, but absolutely nothing is being done to control costs. When the money is no longer available or the desire is gone to spend the money to field a 410, "the ball games over!" I watch the wingless 410's in Indiana on MAV TV as well as the ASCS. The ASCS have full fields. The wingess 410's are getting 14 to 18 cars on average from what I've been seeing. Great racing buttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.[/quote

Really I went to 40 sprint car races in Indiana and can count on one hand how many had less then 25 cars.Ps Newbomb when only 20 cars start the feature,it because only 20 cars start the feature even if they draw 32.Most tracks average 22-25 for regular shows except Kokomo they had 27-30.

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2014 RACE COUNT
2-Brownstown,in
3- LAWRENCEBURG,In
8-KOKOMO,IN
0-Haubstadt,in
0-Plymouth,In
0-Anderson,in
4-GAS CITY,in
8-PUTNAMVILLE,IN
3-BLOOMINGTON,IN
1-QUINCY,IL
1-Waynesfield,oh
1-LINCOLN,IL
1-Terre Haute,in
3-Rossburg,oh
0-Pontoon beach,IL
1-DANVILLE,IL
1-Paragon
13-different tracks,3 states

Total-37


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:34 pm 
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One would think A claim rule could also put a team out of competition for good. Say that team had one motor someone claims it for half price now they can't buy another competitive one for 12 grand. So they decide to close shop. I dont see how this would be good for the 358 division.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:18 pm 
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[quote="AERO410SCJA"][quote="NEWBOMB TURK"]360's will rule the entire country it's just a matter of time. 410's are only in certain area's of the country. Pa, Ohio, Indiana, and California are the strongholds, but are fading.Why were 305, 358' and 360 classes started? Easy answer! Cost to run a 410 is too high. 358 rules were never enforced and they ran themselves out of business. Simple as that. I hope the 305's can keep things under control. ASCS rules are pretty straight forward and I don't see that getting out of hand. I know 410 die-hards don't won't to hear it and can't accept it, but absolutely nothing is being done to control costs. When the money is no longer available or the desire is gone to spend the money to field a 410, "the ball games over!" I watch the wingless 410's in Indiana on MAV TV as well as the ASCS. The ASCS have full fields. The wingess 410's are getting 14 to 18 cars on average from what I've been seeing. Great racing buttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.[/quote

Really I went to 40 sprint car races in Indiana and can count on one hand how many had less then 25 cars.Ps Newbomb when only 20 cars start the feature,it because only 20 cars start the feature even if they draw 32.Most tracks average 22-25 for regular shows except Kokomo they had 27-30.[/quo

I have Lincoln Park Speedway recorded.

Two heats ans 15 cars started the feature. :handoverhead:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:31 pm 
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NEWBOMB TURK wrote:

I have Lincoln Park Speedway recorded.

Two heats ans 15 cars started the feature. :handoverhead:


I'm pretty sure just one race out of many is not statistically significant.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:05 pm 
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SLINKMASTERC wrote:
One would think A claim rule could also put a team out of competition for good. Say that team had one motor someone claims it for half price now they can't buy another competitive one for 12 grand. So they decide to close shop. I dont see how this would be good for the 358 division.
I think you missed the point of my post. The claim rule would be priced at the MEDIAN VALUE of what the sanctioning body expects teams to pay for a motor and be competitive. IE I used the example of the 305 division which has roughly a $10,000-12,000 expected cost, but in reality it is starting to move towards that $20,000 mark which will again put the 305 division in the same spot the 358s and 360s are. They will price themselves out of existence if they aren't careful. Because as their motor costs go up by 100-150% you know their purse payouts and sponsorship dollars sure aren't increasing that amount to cover the additional costs.

Claiming a current 358 motor for $10,000 (25% of the cost of a motor) I agree is absurd, which is why I think you didn't understand my post fully. TBH it looks like its too late to save that division from itself. The 10% that just kept dumping money into motor development have killed that division. Now, either teams closed their doors or figured out it was just as financially sensible if not more so to go 410 racing. I love the 358s, but its a shame.

If you implement a claim rule it has to reflect roughly what the expected motor costs would be (100% of the cash going to the team that had it's motor claimed) and it has to be done early in the series inception. If it's going to be a top dog series (Lets say 410s) then let them have at it and spend $50,000+ on a motor, but the other developmental series need and should have their costs controlled. Because those 305/358/360 drivers will possibly someday be 410 drivers, and the same can be said about the teams as well. If you allow the "farm system" to kill itself, then the top series and the fans suffer too. Not to mention that those lower divisions often put on better races then top series folks


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:15 pm 
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hotrodney wrote:
I believe the answer was the Shaver/Schatz motor that was developed a few years ago using stock GM parts; 20K for a 430 CI/700 HP motor that will last 25-30 races between rebuilds seems far more sensible than spending 35-40K for 358 or 360 motor. With the state of 358 and YES 360 racing(look at URC/ESS counts and tracks around the country like Eagle NE who dropped 360's), I don't know why no tracks or sanctions have tried to phase it in.
I'm with you on that!!!!! I don't know either. I've seen articles where some folks out in California have run them and such, just no real information on how well they did or didn't do. I'm not sure what the REAL price point is on those motors, but if this link is close then it sounds interesting http://www.schwankeshortblocks.com/shopping/productDetails.aspx?i=1536&c=1084 I'm ok with this as long as it's controlled as they say it would be. Technically those motors aren't 410s (they are 427s) but given they use 90% off the shelf GM parts. They shouldn't be able to (or be expected to) run competitively with a full on regular 410 motor that has been built super extra hot for the Kings Royal or some big payout race like that, and I'm ok with that. That's not the motors purpose. Weekly non Outlaw shows which is 90% of what these locals run is what that motor was built for.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:44 pm 
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And to think, people were blaming Goodyears for the plight of the 358 division a few years back.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:19 am 
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NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
AERO410SCJA wrote:
NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
360's will rule the entire country it's just a matter of time. 410's are only in certain area's of the country. Pa, Ohio, Indiana, and California are the strongholds, but are fading.Why were 305, 358' and 360 classes started? Easy answer! Cost to run a 410 is too high. 358 rules were never enforced and they ran themselves out of business. Simple as that. I hope the 305's can keep things under control. ASCS rules are pretty straight forward and I don't see that getting out of hand. I know 410 die-hards don't won't to hear it and can't accept it, but absolutely nothing is being done to control costs. When the money is no longer available or the desire is gone to spend the money to field a 410, "the ball games over!" I watch the wingless 410's in Indiana on MAV TV as well as the ASCS. The ASCS have full fields. The wingess 410's are getting 14 to 18 cars on average from what I've been seeing. Great racing buttttttttttttttttttttttttttt.[/quote

Really I went to 40 sprint car races in Indiana and can count on one hand how many had less then 25 cars.Ps Newbomb when only 20 cars start the feature,it because only 20 cars start the feature even if they draw 32.Most tracks average 22-25 for regular shows except Kokomo they had 27-30.[/quo

I have Lincoln Park Speedway recorded.

Two heats ans 15 cars started the feature. :handoverhead:

So you have one race recorded off Mavtv with a low car count bet if you watch it again Buckley mentions they ran at LPS two nights before. Guess what the car count was 22.And for the record I was at Lawrenceburg the night LPS had 15 cars,It was Midget week.

_________________
2014 RACE COUNT
2-Brownstown,in
3- LAWRENCEBURG,In
8-KOKOMO,IN
0-Haubstadt,in
0-Plymouth,In
0-Anderson,in
4-GAS CITY,in
8-PUTNAMVILLE,IN
3-BLOOMINGTON,IN
1-QUINCY,IL
1-Waynesfield,oh
1-LINCOLN,IL
1-Terre Haute,in
3-Rossburg,oh
0-Pontoon beach,IL
1-DANVILLE,IL
1-Paragon
13-different tracks,3 states

Total-37


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:47 am 
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An articles in a local newspaper says the drivers at Selinsgrove asked the promoter to go to 360's because of 358 engine costs. HMM! Why not 410? It was reported that the Highland's team sold all their 358 stuff. Phil Walter will run the 358 division at the Grove on Friday's and has a 410 ride for Lincoln on Saturday's.No car owner was mentioned. Scott Wilson also going 410 this year. Brock Zearfoss to run 19 races at Selinsgrove in the 1W. Everybody's situation is different as to what they want to do. Locally if you buy a 360 your racing Selinsgrove or going on the road. This will eventually change. The first year will be the transition year. I know one thing for sure. Selinsgrove cannot run 410's anymore. Simply not enough cars for three tracks ANYMORE. At one time there was, but those days are long gone.They tried Friday, Saturday and Sunday and different promoters. One night a week 410 teams seems to be the trend we are on now. The grove will get the ones with funds to run more often. How long this will keep going is the question?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:10 am 
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360s will be the end of Selinsgrove as a sprint car track.

I think Pa will see a migration to smaller less engine dependant tracks.

It's time for the tracks to develop a 5 year transition plan that introduces a larger cubic inch motor that creates roughly the same HP (around 650) as a 358 to allow a natural migration.

My fear is that tracks will take the easy path and change to 305s as support... On the basis of how many are out there and the misconceptions about their costs.

True engine cost reduction needs compression and rpm rules. The cheapest HP comes from cubes.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:33 am 
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Cobra wrote:
360s will be the end of Selinsgrove as a sprint car track.

I think Pa will see a migration to smaller less engine dependant tracks.

It's time for the tracks to develop a 5 year transition plan that introduces a larger cubic inch motor that creates roughly the same HP (around 650) as a 358 to allow a natural migration.

My fear is that tracks will take the easy path and change to 305s as support... On the basis of how many are out there and the misconceptions about their costs.

True engine cost reduction needs compression and rpm rules. The cheapest HP comes from cubes.


agreed.
the problem i am seeing is yes, there are 25k 305's out there now and the 305 class was originally started as a spec class with the idea of being able to take your 305 anywhere in the country and race. it has already gone past that idea and have a lot more rules and politics.
here is one stupid rule (yes, there are more) you can only use Ti hardware within 2 inches of the center of the rotating assembly.....which leaves out Ti wheel bolts, beadlock bolts, hub studs, ect but you are allowed to run a Ti driveshaft at $750.00 and Ti hardware anywhere else on the car...WTF?
i know for a fact that there are 305's out there that are dynoing over 150-200 hp more than the majority.
so....what started as a laid back, everyone gets paid class is quickly morphing into every other spec class that has been tried and didnt work.

i DO like the idea of a spec big block. give the builders a little room and then seal it up and race it.
not only is there no substitution for cubic inches but it allows more time between rebuilds caus you are not screaming the crap out of it trying to make HP.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:37 am 
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hotrodney wrote:
kossuth wrote:
Cobra wrote:
If you went back 5 years and all the people petitioning for 360s (smaller "cheaper" engines) ...who would have thought that the 410s would have more than double the car count of the 358s...

Something is very wrong in the 358 cost structure...
The same thing that is wrong with the 358 structure is the same thing that is going to be wrong with the 360 structure. You can go racing with a 410 (albet motor refreshes not counted) for **** near the same amount of money you can go racing with a 358/360 with. That is what is wrong with the 358s. It costs about the same to go racing whether it is a 358/360/410 and you're racing for peanuts compared to the 410s. The math is pretty simple really. When you start opening up rules on the motors things get really expensive really quick because everybody looks for every advantage they can find, and the racers eventually price themselves out of the division.

Personally my belief is the best way to control motor costs and such is to institute a claim rule along with all the other motor rules too. Yeah, it would suck if you won and got your motor claimed for $XYZ price (The claim cost would have to be the target cost that the division is aiming at) but a lot of folks would definitely think twice before building a $25,000 super hot 305 if it can get claimed the first night for $12,000.


I agree 100% with your first paragraph. As far as the motor costs, I believe the answer was the Shaver/Schatz motor that was developed a few years ago using stock GM parts; 20K for a 430 CI/700 HP motor that will last 25-30 races between rebuilds seems far more sensible than spending 35-40K for 358 or 360 motor. With the state of 358 and YES 360 racing(look at URC/ESS counts and tracks around the country like Eagle NE who dropped 360's), I don't know why no tracks or sanctions have tried to phase it in.


Not being deeply involved in the sport, I don't know all the history or all the issues, but just from a fan perspective and based on limited knowledge, I'm in the camp of those wondering why the Shaver/Schatz motor idea (or one of the other similar schemes that were popping up around the sames time) hasn't been at least explored in this area. Or maybe it has, and I'm just not aware of it.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:56 am 
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Cobra wrote:
360s will be the end of Selinsgrove as a sprint car track.

I think Pa will see a migration to smaller less engine dependant tracks.

It's time for the tracks to develop a 5 year transition plan that introduces a larger cubic inch motor that creates roughly the same HP (around 650) as a 358 to allow a natural migration.

My fear is that tracks will take the easy path and change to 305s as support... On the basis of how many are out there and the misconceptions about their costs.

True engine cost reduction needs compression and rpm rules. The cheapest HP comes from cubes.


I agree 100%. I love Selinsgrove but I've been saying for years that the size of the track is gonna be it's downfall. There's just too many big 1/2 mile motor tracks in the area and SG is the odd man out right now. Going to 360's isn't gonna change anything. It just costs too much to race any of the upper sprint/ LM divisions these days. Another issue is that there aren't as many fans in the stands on a weekly basis as there was a few years back from what I remember. That makes it even harder for a promoter to keep purses up with the escalating costs. Not to mention the number of tracks in a relatively small area all competing for cars and fans. Look at WG on Friday, opening night and the place is far from packed, looked about 1/3 capacity to me.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 11:11 am 
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NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
An articles in a local newspaper says the drivers at Selinsgrove asked the promoter to go to 360's because of 358 engine costs. HMM! Why not 410?


Because just about all of the top teams at SG already have a 360 that they use for the challenge races. If you do some research you know that a brand new 360 costs the same as a 358 so how are they saving anything? Combining the 360's with the 358's is only putting a band-aid on the situation and it remains to be seen if it's gonna help at all with car counts. I think they will get a few extra when URC is off but that's about it. Losing a few 358's would make it a wash. Personally I was happy with around 20 358's(mostly topnotch cars and drivers) last year. Most importantly the racing was usually good. My biggest concern with this new deal is going to the bigger topwing and locking down the cars more. IMO the big topwings are suited for 410's not smaller engine sprints.

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