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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:03 pm 
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NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
An articles in a local newspaper says the drivers at Selinsgrove asked the promoter to go to 360's because of 358 engine costs. HMM! Why not 410? It was reported that the Highland's team sold all their 358 stuff. Phil Walter will run the 358 division at the Grove on Friday's and has a 410 ride for Lincoln on Saturday's.No car owner was mentioned. Scott Wilson also going 410 this year. Brock Zearfoss to run 19 races at Selinsgrove in the 1W. Everybody's situation is different as to what they want to do. Locally if you buy a 360 your racing Selinsgrove or going on the road. This will eventually change. The first year will be the transition year. I know one thing for sure. Selinsgrove cannot run 410's anymore. Simply not enough cars for three tracks ANYMORE. At one time there was, but those days are long gone.They tried Friday, Saturday and Sunday and different promoters. One night a week 410 teams seems to be the trend we are on now. The grove will get the ones with funds to run more often. How long this will keep going is the question?


So with that being said does that mean when SG has the Jim Nace memorial race I don't have to leave at 10:00 a.m. to find a seat?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:08 pm 
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Deez Nuts wrote:
NEWBOMB TURK wrote:

I have Lincoln Park Speedway recorded.

Two heats ans 15 cars started the feature. :handoverhead:


I'm pretty sure just one race out of many is not statistically significant.


I had a lot more, but deleted them due to running out of disc space. I know there were others with small car counts because I watched them. The one's that seemed to get decent car counts were championships or memorial races or something along that line.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:14 pm 
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DIRT-MAN wrote:
NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
An articles in a local newspaper says the drivers at Selinsgrove asked the promoter to go to 360's because of 358 engine costs. HMM! Why not 410? It was reported that the Highland's team sold all their 358 stuff. Phil Walter will run the 358 division at the Grove on Friday's and has a 410 ride for Lincoln on Saturday's.No car owner was mentioned. Scott Wilson also going 410 this year. Brock Zearfoss to run 19 races at Selinsgrove in the 1W. Everybody's situation is different as to what they want to do. Locally if you buy a 360 your racing Selinsgrove or going on the road. This will eventually change. The first year will be the transition year. I know one thing for sure. Selinsgrove cannot run 410's WEEKLY anymore. Simply not enough cars for three tracks ANYMORE. At one time there was, but those days are long gone.They tried Friday, Saturday and Sunday and different promoters. One night a week 410 teams seems to be the trend we are on now. The grove will get the ones with funds to run more often. How long this will keep going is the question?


So with that being said does that mean when SG has the Jim Nace memorial race I don't have to leave at 10:00 a.m. to find a seat?


I added weekly for you.

Thought that was understood.

I guess you'll have to figure that out for yourself.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:45 pm 
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I think that it is the racers,motorbuilders and the manufactuers that are killing the sport across the board. Especially in the 305 div. where manufactuers are putting out 305 specific injections, rearends, other parts and charging more for them and 305 racers are dumb enough to spend the money so who's fault is that. Back in the day you had racers that had skills and could be creative make there own parts and build there own engines, now you have mass production of any part on the car and you have people buying 305 motors from some local 410 motorbuilder costing more than 20k. Flash pan racers are the future of the sport guys dropping a pile of money for a year or two then out of money and out of the sport. This sport is being killed from the inside. Hopefully someone or something changes it by rule enforcements or changes that really save money for the racers.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:53 pm 
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hotrodney wrote:
NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
An articles in a local newspaper says the drivers at Selinsgrove asked the promoter to go to 360's because of 358 engine costs. HMM! Why not 410?


Because just about all of the top teams at SG already have a 360 that they use for the challenge races. If you do some research you know that a brand new 360 costs the same as a 358 so how are they saving anything? Combining the 360's with the 358's is only putting a band-aid on the situation and it remains to be seen if it's gonna help at all with car counts. I think they will get a few extra when URC is off but that's about it. Losing a few 358's would make it a wash. Personally I was happy with around 20 358's(mostly topnotch cars and drivers) last year. Most importantly the racing was usually good. My biggest concern with this new deal is going to the bigger topwing and locking down the cars more. IMO the big topwings are suited for 410's not smaller engine sprints.



Show me your research! :bringiton:

By what you say, you have already done the research?

I'd like to see a side by side comparison on engine component cost and rebuild costs and longevity on a 358, 360 and 410. 358 really doesn't matter as they will soon be gone,

The big money saver on a 360 is the heads. Everybody must use exactly the same ones NO ALTERATIONS OF ANY KIND PERMITTED. They can and will be checked with gauges should the need arise. Heads rules make many other engine component choices narrow. NO ALUMINUM BLOCKS NO TITANIUM allowed either. Your not going to tell me steel is more expensive than aluminum or titanium?

Do you know the main factor in high costs??????????????????????????

Here it is, like it or not! NO RULES NO ENFORCEMENT.

TEAMS will spend an ungodly amount of money to get an advantage on there competitors.

Take that away, (360/305 ASCS RULES) and you will see costs stabilize.

410's don't seem to want to do that so the spending wars go on.

Engine builders are in heaven!

This comes at an expense to the sport as car counts drop and we see more one night a week teams.

Given other options what might one night a week teams do in the future.

Time will tell.

My money is on the 360's the way things are at the present time.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:07 pm 
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double post...


Last edited by kossuth on Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:07 pm 
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NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
I'd like to see a side by side comparison on engine component cost and rebuild costs and longevity on a 358, 360 and 410. 358 really doesn't matter as they will soon be gone
Other than the number of runs between refreshes I would imagine the costs are very similar. Bearings, magnafluxing components, valvesprings, and all those parts and pieces that get checked and chunked during a refresh in reality cost pretty close to if not the same between any V8 motor really. I'm sure there might be something that I'm overlooking but most of your parts would cost roughly the same. FYI, I've assembled several LSx motors at home for my little street truck I like to drag race and I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt allot of your costs when we talk about engines is the machine shop costs IE labor and so on.

Quote:
The big money saver on a 360 is the heads. Everybody must use exactly the same ones NO ALTERATIONS OF ANY KIND PERMITTED. They can and will be checked with gauges should the need arise. Heads rules make many other engine component choices narrow. NO ALUMINUM BLOCKS NO TITANIUM allowed either. Your not going to tell me steel is more expensive than aluminum or titanium?
This isn't really true. The heads can be modified on 360s. Read the head rules in their entirety http://www.ascsracing.com/downloads/get.aspx?i=75426 They are allowed to polish this and polish that as long as the intake runner doesn't exceed however many CCs or they don't go beyond their specifications. They are still allowing builders to mess with the heads (performance mods, lets call it what it is), they are just giving the builder a smaller window to work in (or what they think is a smaller window). Also, they are allowed to run Titanium in the motors too, it's just limited to items like valve retainers and valves. Which does drive costs up but makes all the sense in the world, when you want a motor to live 15+ nights without crashing the valvetrain. Racers are gonna spin the snot out of it whether it is a steel or titanium valvetrain. Problem is if it's steel and a spring gets a little lazy then you definitely are gonna crash a valve into a piston and wipe the whole motor out. I think the ASCS realized this and have started to let this slide a little. Is there a cost gain? Yeah a little, but it's definitely cheaper than wiping out a motor.

Quote:

Do you know the main factor in high costs??????????????????????????

Here it is, like it or not! NO RULES NO ENFORCEMENT.

TEAMS will spend an ungodly amount of money to get an advantage on there competitors.
I agree with you here because racers are racers and they are going to look for every advantage. I would also like to offer you this being it also applies.
RULES BUT NO ENFORCEMENT = NO RULES
If a rule can't be enforced then it isn't a rule, and I wonder if the ASCS head rules fall into this category which is why the motor costs have gone up so much with them.

Quote:
Engine builders are in heaven!
Not so sure on this. The limited engine assembly I've done (won't call myself a builder) has been mostly just following well known "recipes" to get good results IE use this cam with these heads and it should make XYZ horsepower. The beauty is too that it was all off the shelf stuff. When you are the true builder and you're testing new cam technologies or you attempting to optimize cylinder head ports and so on I truely wonder just how much stuff you TRASH/DESTROY and lose money on vs finding something that will give a competitor 10 more horsepower. It costs alot of money to do the machine work on custom stuff, and the time and research required to develop new things I'm sure is immeasurable. So I would have to imagine that a chunk of that $40,000 - $50,000 engine is to pay for not only the development of the good things the builder put in the engine, but also the many "Oops" along the way.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:19 pm 
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THE LOUD PEDAL wrote:
I think that it is the racers,motorbuilders and the manufactuers that are killing the sport across the board. Especially in the 305 div. where manufactuers are putting out 305 specific injections, rearends, other parts and charging more for them and 305 racers are dumb enough to spend the money so who's fault is that. Back in the day you had racers that had skills and could be creative make there own parts and build there own engines, now you have mass production of any part on the car and you have people buying 305 motors from some local 410 motorbuilder costing more than 20k. Flash pan racers are the future of the sport guys dropping a pile of money for a year or two then out of money and out of the sport. This sport is being killed from the inside. Hopefully someone or something changes it by rule enforcements or changes that really save money for the racers.
I go back to my claim rule suggestion. The only way you can control costs is by allowing fellow racers to "purchase" said motor from a feature winner for the median value which you feel the division racers should be spending. If you put the power of the purchase into the hands of the racers that are being outspent in a division that isn't supposed to have that kinda money then it will police itself as long as racers are willing to "claim" a motor. I know if race team "A" has won 2-3 out of the first 5-6 features and it was very obvious that they were the class of the field motor wise I would seriously consider claiming their mill. Plus, the claim price has to reflect what team "A" could go right back down to the builder and purchase outright what the sanctioning body would consider a typical division motor. That is the only way it would work.

Some might consider a D-bag move, but the racers have to police themselves and if something doesn't look right, smell right, seem right, then they have to be willing to call BS on it.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:32 pm 
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[quote=

Not being deeply involved in the sport, I don't know all the history or all the issues, but just from a fan perspective and based on limited knowledge, I'm in the camp of those wondering why the Shaver/Schatz motor idea (or one of the other similar schemes that were popping up around the sames time) hasn't been at least explored in this area. Or maybe it has, and I'm just not aware of it.[/quote]

If i remember correctly, there was a picture of aaron ott from lincoln a year or two ago and i believe they had an ls type engine in the car? Not sure what ever became of that :thinking:


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 2:37 pm 
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kossuth wrote:
NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
I'd like to see a side by side comparison on engine component cost and rebuild costs and longevity on a 358, 360 and 410. 358 really doesn't matter as they will soon be gone
Other than the number of runs between refreshes I would imagine the costs are very similar. Bearings, magnafluxing components, valvesprings, and all those parts and pieces that get checked and chunked during a refresh in reality cost pretty close to if not the same between any V8 motor really. I'm sure there might be something that I'm overlooking but most of your parts would cost roughly the same. FYI, I've assembled several LSx motors at home for my little street truck I like to drag race and I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt allot of your costs when we talk about engines is the machine shop costs IE labor and so on.

Quote:
The big money saver on a 360 is the heads. Everybody must use exactly the same ones NO ALTERATIONS OF ANY KIND PERMITTED. They can and will be checked with gauges should the need arise. Heads rules make many other engine component choices narrow. NO ALUMINUM BLOCKS NO TITANIUM allowed either. Your not going to tell me steel is more expensive than aluminum or titanium?
This isn't really true. The heads can be modified on 360s. Read the head rules in their entirety http://www.ascsracing.com/downloads/get.aspx?i=75426 They are allowed to polish this and polish that as long as the intake runner doesn't exceed however many CCs or they don't go beyond their specifications. They are still allowing builders to mess with the heads (performance mods, lets call it what it is), they are just giving the builder a smaller window to work in (or what they think is a smaller window). Also, they are allowed to run Titanium in the motors too, it's just limited to items like valve retainers and valves. Which does drive costs up but makes all the sense in the world, when you want a motor to live 15+ nights without crashing the valvetrain. Racers are gonna spin the snot out of it whether it is a steel or titanium valvetrain. Problem is if it's steel and a spring gets a little lazy then you definitely are gonna crash a valve into a piston and wipe the whole motor out. I think the ASCS realized this and have started to let this slide a little. Is there a cost gain? Yeah a little, but it's definitely cheaper than wiping out a motor.

Quote:

Do you know the main factor in high costs??????????????????????????

Here it is, like it or not! NO RULES NO ENFORCEMENT.

TEAMS will spend an ungodly amount of money to get an advantage on there competitors.
I agree with you here because racers are racers and they are going to look for every advantage. I would also like to offer you this being it also applies.
RULES BUT NO ENFORCEMENT = NO RULES
If a rule can't be enforced then it isn't a rule, and I wonder if the ASCS head rules fall into this category which is why the motor costs have gone up so much with them.

Quote:
Engine builders are in heaven!
Not so sure on this. The limited engine assembly I've done (won't call myself a builder) has been mostly just following well known "recipes" to get good results IE use this cam with these heads and it should make XYZ horsepower. The beauty is too that it was all off the shelf stuff. When you are the true builder and you're testing new cam technologies or you attempting to optimize cylinder head ports and so on I truely wonder just how much stuff you TRASH/DESTROY and lose money on vs finding something that will give a competitor 10 more horsepower. It costs alot of money to do the machine work on custom stuff, and the time and research required to develop new things I'm sure is immeasurable. So I would have to imagine that a chunk of that $40,000 - $50,000 engine is to pay for not only the development of the good things the builder put in the engine, but also the many "Oops" along the way.


I would defiantly have to disagree on cost of parts. No way a cast iron block costs what an aluminum block cost. I can't see a steel crank coming anywhere near a titanium crank. I've heard $5,000.00 for a rebuild every ten races on a 410. 360 start the year off fresh and then one time after that. I'd like to see some prices. I would think a top of the line 410 is about $10,000.00 more than a 360 at least. Then you have the rebuilds. I doubt ASCS rules can't be enforced. The price of everything is going up, from toilet paper to sprint car engines. Not much R&D being done on toilet paper.

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The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:02 pm 
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Deez Nuts wrote:
NEWBOMB TURK wrote:

I have Lincoln Park Speedway recorded.

Two heats ans 15 cars started the feature. :handoverhead:


I'm pretty sure just one race out of many is not statistically significant.


51 cars at brownstown......."RIGHT NOW!"


Last edited by c4 on Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 4:02 pm 
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NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
hotrodney wrote:
NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
An articles in a local newspaper says the drivers at Selinsgrove asked the promoter to go to 360's because of 358 engine costs. HMM! Why not 410?


Because just about all of the top teams at SG already have a 360 that they use for the challenge races. If you do some research you know that a brand new 360 costs the same as a 358 so how are they saving anything? Combining the 360's with the 358's is only putting a band-aid on the situation and it remains to be seen if it's gonna help at all with car counts. I think they will get a few extra when URC is off but that's about it. Losing a few 358's would make it a wash. Personally I was happy with around 20 358's(mostly topnotch cars and drivers) last year. Most importantly the racing was usually good. My biggest concern with this new deal is going to the bigger topwing and locking down the cars more. IMO the big topwings are suited for 410's not smaller engine sprints.



Show me your research! :bringiton:

By what you say, you have already done the research?

I'd like to see a side by side comparison on engine component cost and rebuild costs and longevity on a 358, 360 and 410. 358 really doesn't matter as they will soon be gone,

The big money saver on a 360 is the heads. Everybody must use exactly the same ones NO ALTERATIONS OF ANY KIND PERMITTED. They can and will be checked with gauges should the need arise. Heads rules make many other engine component choices narrow. NO ALUMINUM BLOCKS NO TITANIUM allowed either. Your not going to tell me steel is more expensive than aluminum or titanium?

Do you know the main factor in high costs??????????????????????????

Here it is, like it or not! NO RULES NO ENFORCEMENT.

TEAMS will spend an ungodly amount of money to get an advantage on there competitors.

Take that away, (360/305 ASCS RULES) and you will see costs stabilize.

410's don't seem to want to do that so the spending wars go on.

Engine builders are in heaven!

This comes at an expense to the sport as car counts drop and we see more one night a week teams.

Given other options what might one night a week teams do in the future.

Time will tell.

My money is on the 360's the way things are at the present time.


http://riderracingengines.com/engines.htm

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 5:34 pm 
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Its all ready being said if car counts don't go up significantly Selinsgrove might go back to 358's. I'm still waiting to hear where all these new 360 teams are going to come from. I have yet to talk to anyone who switched to a 360 this year just to go race there. My opinion the track doubled their purse for the exact same car count. Hope I'm wrong and it all works but I just don't see it happening.

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Williams Grove-6
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Port - 1

40 races in 2013
50 races in 2012.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:07 pm 
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hotrodney:
Like I told kosouth about a $10,000.00 difference. Not a small piece of change. Throw in the rebuilds every ten races and it gets quite a bit more expensive. And all of that to go as fast as I can or most people can run. About a second a lap. Not at all noticeable unless both classes are on the track at the same time.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:32 pm 
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Bill Mc wrote:
Its all ready being said if car counts don't go up significantly Selinsgrove might go back to 358's. I'm still waiting to hear where all these new 360 teams are going to come from. I have yet to talk to anyone who switched to a 360 this year just to go race there. My opinion the track doubled their purse for the exact same car count. Hope I'm wrong and it all works but I just don't see it happening.


After Charlie gave the green light to teams to buy 360's Really?

358's are on the outs.

I know you like Trailways

Maybe they can get enough of the leftover 358's or maybe they may have some decisions down the road. Time will tell!

10 360 races with URC, ESS and Patriot's Car counts should be god for all of those.

You can run 360/358 either or so what purpose would it serve to revert back?

358's can beat a 360. I've seen it happen.

The 360's are easier to police.

I'm by no means an expert on the subject, but common sense tells me there are reasons that 360's are the class of choice across the majority of the US of A.

As far as who made the switch, haven't heard much. Cannon, Stutz and Smith alredy had them, and I heard Cody Keller got one. I guess we will see if they ever race. At this point it looks like a nice week and a crappy weekend. Snowing and blowing like crazy here in rural Sunbury. Got an inch already.

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The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all.
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Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.
Mark Twain


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