Trial ends

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Re: Trial ends

Post by sprntlover » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:13 pm

I was at Lincoln that night too Warthog and remember that wheel cover flying off and hitting a man. Cut his arm up pretty good and am so glad that is all that was because it could have been much worse. Last Sat night at the Grove down off turn 2 where I stand either Lance or Schatz's wheel cover flew off and went flying toward the back pits. I'm sure it cleared that as fast as it was flying. Hopefully it landed in a tree or missed everything
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Re: Trial ends

Post by cjettmail » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:23 pm

I think he will appeal, Most lawyers only get money (33%) if they win. That goes up when they appeal to (40-45%). I just hope the court won't here the case, And if they do the jury has some race fans in it.

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Re: Trial ends

Post by Warthog » Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:14 pm

sprntlover wrote:I was at Lincoln that night too Warthog and remember that wheel cover flying off and hitting a man. Cut his arm up pretty good and am so glad that is all that was because it could have been much worse. Last Sat night at the Grove down off turn 2 where I stand either Lance or Schatz's wheel cover flew off and went flying toward the back pits. I'm sure it cleared that as fast as it was flying. Hopefully it landed in a tree or missed everything
My understanding is that there are two types of wheel covers - foam and metal. Given the potential for a really tragic outcome (not saying that the guy at Lincoln's arm wasn't bad, but what if it had been his head?), and the number of instances I've seen reported of wheel covers coming off and going airborne at high speed, one wonders why the promoters or sanctioning bodies don't simply specify the foam ones. Why take the chance with the metal ones, especially when there is potential for serious injury to fans, not just "willing participants"?

And for those who do have some expertise in the matter, what's the attraction of the metal ones that keeps them in use? Are they somehow superior to the foam ones in performance, cost, durability, or some other factor? It doesn't seem like "they stay on better" is a valid argument.
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Re: Trial ends

Post by Scott Harro » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:08 pm

there was a time i believe back in the 80's or 90's that all the tracks had a rule that all wheel covers had to actually be the foam inserts. i for one think they should go back to them.
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Re: Trial ends

Post by c4 » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:03 am

the foam "covers" are actually foam plugs that kinda stuff into the wheel. grandview (depending on their mood), new egypt and maybe bridgeport require these. some tracks make you duct tape the zeus buttons so its harder to have them work loose. there are also carbon fiber and plastic covers that zeus on and, in the modifieds, they have a wheel cover/bead lock combination that bolts on using the bead lock bolts. the plastic ones are safer than metal and carbon fiber because the edges are more rounded and kinda wrap around the bead lock rather than fitting inside it.
the disadvantage to the foam plugs is that they can still let chunks of mud get into the wheel, causing a vibration at speed.

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Re: Trial ends

Post by Warthog » Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:39 am

c4 wrote:the foam "covers" are actually foam plugs that kinda stuff into the wheel. grandview (depending on their mood), new egypt and maybe bridgeport require these. some tracks make you duct tape the zeus buttons so its harder to have them work loose. there are also carbon fiber and plastic covers that zeus on and, in the modifieds, they have a wheel cover/bead lock combination that bolts on using the bead lock bolts. the plastic ones are safer than metal and carbon fiber because the edges are more rounded and kinda wrap around the bead lock rather than fitting inside it.
the disadvantage to the foam plugs is that they can still let chunks of mud get into the wheel, causing a vibration at speed.
Thanks for the info - it helps for those of us who don't actually have "hands on" knowledge.

I was just wondering whether anybody from the team who lost the wheel cover that night at Lincoln went to the guy who got hit by the Ninja Wheel Cover and asked "Are you OK?", but then it occurred to me that in today's world, that might have been seen as an "admission of guilt" and gotten somebody to "lawyer up". Even if the guy who got hit didn't sue, somebody nearby might claim to be traumatized by their near-death experience or something. I realize the need for courts and lawyers for dispensing real justice and making sure that people who have been unduly harmed are treated fairly, but it seems to me we've made it a bit too much of an industry out of it.

I think the carbon fiber ones would be the worst - lighter, stiffer, probably thinner, and that all adds up to a worst case scenario of flying faster and farther and cutting deeper if they hit anything. And carbon fiber slivers and shards are pretty nasty, too, if the thing shatters.

I think it should be possible to design a cover with tension built in, made of some material with appropriate flexibility and shape memory properties, such that if it came loose, it would automatically revert to it's natural non-flat shape, maybe something like the Pringle's potato chip double-opposed-curvature, to make it aerodynamically unstable and simply flop around in the air and fall quickly to the ground, or at least not fly very fast if it did keep airborne. Airspeed means distance and danger if one of these things is flying.

Of course, that would also automatically make them more annoying to use, because one would have to be fighting the built-in tension to shift the thing from the "off the wheel" deformed shape to the "on the wheel" flat shape in the process of installing them. It would also make it more likely that one or more fasteners wouldn't "grab" properly if the thing wasn't pressed all the way to the "flat" shape during installation. By comparison, putting on one whose natural shape is flat would always be much easier. There's trade-offs to everything.

Sorry to geek out - engineer brain going into "how would I design it differently?" mode.
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Re: Trial ends

Post by poolguy » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:23 am

JTR13 wrote:But I can also say as a person who has working for a major medical insurance company here in PA for many years, as mentioned in some of the other threads on this topic, this very well could have been his insurance company pulling the strings and telling him he needed to move forward with this to offset some of the medical expenses they/he has had to pay out to date...
:thumbright:


This is true. And I'm surprised that someone hasn't brought up the fact that insurance companys are ripping off so many customers and they make millions or billions of dollars.

I've never heard of an insurance company that run out of money.

Funny how insurance is a good thing until you have to use it, then they fight you tooth and nail to pay out.

Gotta read the fine print and sometimes you need a lawyer to understand the 20 page policy. :ahhh:


Just stirring the pot in the opposite direction...............LOL!

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Re: Trial ends

Post by Warthog » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:34 am

poolguy wrote:
JTR13 wrote:But I can also say as a person who has working for a major medical insurance company here in PA for many years, as mentioned in some of the other threads on this topic, this very well could have been his insurance company pulling the strings and telling him he needed to move forward with this to offset some of the medical expenses they/he has had to pay out to date...
:thumbright:


This is true. And I'm surprised that someone hasn't brought up the fact that insurance companys are ripping off so many customers and they make millions or billions of dollars.

I've never heard of an insurance company that run out of money.

Funny how insurance is a good thing until you have to use it, then they fight you tooth and nail to pay out.

Gotta read the fine print and sometimes you need a lawyer to understand the 20 page policy. :ahhh:


Just stirring the pot in the opposite direction...............LOL!
Personally, I prefer where possible to deal with "mutual" insurance companies, where the policy holders are the owners, rather than ones where the company has shareholders whose interests might not align so well with those of the policy holders. It isn't always the case that one type is more reasonable than the other, but I think the chance of being treated fairly tend to be better with mutual (or "member owned") insurance companies than shareholder-owned companies.
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Re: Trial ends

Post by Sprintgirl » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:57 am

First off let me say that, I feel terrible for what happened to John Westbrook. As the daughter, sister and wife of a former sprint car driver, we all know the risks involved with our beloved sport and we all know what signing a release form in order to enter the pits means. This case should have never been brought forward and the fact that he continues to attend Williamsgrove as a car owner is crock of ****. If I were the management of the grove, I would never let the guy on the premises again!
Sure hope his new driver is smart enough to where a HANS!

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Re: Trial ends

Post by JTR13 » Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:59 am

Warthog wrote:
c4 wrote:the foam "covers" are actually foam plugs that kinda stuff into the wheel. grandview (depending on their mood), new egypt and maybe bridgeport require these. some tracks make you duct tape the zeus buttons so its harder to have them work loose. there are also carbon fiber and plastic covers that zeus on and, in the modifieds, they have a wheel cover/bead lock combination that bolts on using the bead lock bolts. the plastic ones are safer than metal and carbon fiber because the edges are more rounded and kinda wrap around the bead lock rather than fitting inside it.
the disadvantage to the foam plugs is that they can still let chunks of mud get into the wheel, causing a vibration at speed.
Thanks for the info - it helps for those of us who don't actually have "hands on" knowledge.

I was just wondering whether anybody from the team who lost the wheel cover that night at Lincoln went to the guy who got hit by the Ninja Wheel Cover and asked "Are you OK?", but then it occurred to me that in today's world, that might have been seen as an "admission of guilt" and gotten somebody to "lawyer up". Even if the guy who got hit didn't sue, somebody nearby might claim to be traumatized by their near-death experience or something. I realize the need for courts and lawyers for dispensing real justice and making sure that people who have been unduly harmed are treated fairly, but it seems to me we've made it a bit too much of an industry out of it.

I think the carbon fiber ones would be the worst - lighter, stiffer, probably thinner, and that all adds up to a worst case scenario of flying faster and farther and cutting deeper if they hit anything. And carbon fiber slivers and shards are pretty nasty, too, if the thing shatters.

I think it should be possible to design a cover with tension built in, made of some material with appropriate flexibility and shape memory properties, such that if it came loose, it would automatically revert to it's natural non-flat shape, maybe something like the Pringle's potato chip double-opposed-curvature, to make it aerodynamically unstable and simply flop around in the air and fall quickly to the ground, or at least not fly very fast if it did keep airborne. Airspeed means distance and danger if one of these things is flying.

Of course, that would also automatically make them more annoying to use, because one would have to be fighting the built-in tension to shift the thing from the "off the wheel" deformed shape to the "on the wheel" flat shape in the process of installing them. It would also make it more likely that one or more fasteners wouldn't "grab" properly if the thing wasn't pressed all the way to the "flat" shape during installation. By comparison, putting on one whose natural shape is flat would always be much easier. There's trade-offs to everything.

Sorry to geek out - engineer brain going into "how would I design it differently?" mode.
If I am thinking of the same incident that you all are talking about, and I believe I am, it was Adam Wilt's wheel cover that came off... I remember reading on his FB page and saw that the family of the gentlman that got hit posted pictures and let them know it happened, and I also believe that Adam was in contact with the genteman, now what the outcome was, that's between Adam and the guy that got hit I guess...

I also remember us discussing this back then and someone came up with the idea of putting a flap of some kind on the inside that the air movement would make it pop out if the cap went airborne, which would basically make it fly like a really crappy paper airplane
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Re: Trial ends

Post by Warthog » Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:55 pm

JTR13 wrote:
I also remember us discussing this back then and someone came up with the idea of putting a flap of some kind on the inside that the air movement would make it pop out if the cap went airborne, which would basically make it fly like a really crappy paper airplane
That would be something like the roof flaps that NASCAR uses to help keep spinning cars from going airborne. Good idea! And as you said, if the flap is on the inside and only pops open when the cover is removed, it would likely be pretty simple to design, and have no negative impact on performance as long as the cover stays where it's supposed to. A similar approach would be a two-layer cover, hinged on one side and spring-loaded, such that when fastened in place, the two halve are nested, but if the cover pops off, the two halve snap open to an angle, and as you say - fly like a crappy paper airplane.

In either case, the initial testing would be pretty easy - throw the thing like a Frisbee(tm), and see if it pops open as designed, and if it fails to fly very far once it does.

I bet somebody one this board could probably fabricate a prototype and maybe create a nice little side business for themselves, or sell the idea to a manufacturer. Or maybe a manufacturer will read this, and see a market in producing them.
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Re: Trial ends

Post by cjettmail » Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:04 pm

I've seen 2 wheel covers go flying @ the Grove in turn 1, never to be seen again who knows how far they went?? If there's no problem I say use the foam!!
It would be nice to tell Westbrook to stay away since the Grove so dangerous!!! I guess it's OK for someone else to drive his car there??

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Re: Trial ends

Post by Mr. Port » Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:11 pm

It will be interesting to see if the 1w car is in the pit area Friday night.

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Re: Trial ends

Post by BlueOnBlack21 » Wed Jul 23, 2014 4:47 pm

Mr. Port wrote:It will be interesting to see if the 1w car is in the pit area Friday night.
And to see if john is in his usual spot in turn 3. What will the reaction be if brock wins anytime soon :wellwaiting:

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Re: Trial ends

Post by Warthog » Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:02 pm

BlueOnBlack21 wrote:
Mr. Port wrote:It will be interesting to see if the 1w car is in the pit area Friday night.
And to see if john is in his usual spot in turn 3. What will the reaction be if brock wins anytime soon :wellwaiting:
I hope that fans don't take it out on the driver. Yes, it's his choice who he drives for, but I think it's a bit much to ask of a driver to expect him or her to walk away from a ride, just because fans don't approve of his owner's lawsuit.
Q: How is Central PA different from the Old West?
A: In Central PA, the Outlaws try to catch The Posse!

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