Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

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Bill Mc
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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by Bill Mc » Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:31 pm

Some of you people are just clueless.
Central PA 358 Racing Series - http://www.centralparacing.com
Central PA Racing Scene - http://www.centralparacingscene.com
2015 race count

Williams Grove-2
Lincoln- 7
Trail Way -2
Port - 1
Action Track -
Susquehanna -

12 races in 2016
43 races in 2015
43 races in 2014
40 races in 2013
50 races in 2012.
56 races in 2011.

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by SK-11 » Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:06 pm

I think if they get rid of the 358s and go to 360s you will get more cars, I also think if the rotate the second division between 360s, SLM and the super sportsman plus sometimes bring in Big and Small Block Mods the should get better crowds! JMO

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by Warthog » Sat Aug 23, 2014 9:38 am

Bill Mc wrote:Some of you people are just clueless.
No, we're all clueless at one time or another. Some of us are just better at demonstrating it in public!
:D
Q: How is Central PA different from the Old West?
A: In Central PA, the Outlaws try to catch The Posse!

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by applepower » Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:12 am

The schedule should include at least 1 Friday night per month for phantom rainouts !!!!

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by Allen Reed » Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:18 am

To everyone asking for 360s.......I need you to put your promoters hat on and think about this....

do you really think the grove will dump a class that is averaging 15 cars and pay $1000 to win and bring in 360s that "may" average 20-22 cars and start paying $2500 to win plus the entire purse is increased ? Just doesn't make sense financially. Now if we were talking about Lincoln or ( Port the last 2 years ) where they have demonstrated over the years its all about the racing and not just the money ( not canceling after the 5th rain drop and getting the race in even with less than a 3rd of the stands full ) you might have a slight chance.

How did that 360 change work out for Selinsgrove for their regular Saturday races that are not sanctioned URC events or the other series they have on the schedule that the drivers are forced to go ?

Mr. Port

Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by Mr. Port » Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:27 am

Well Said Allen, same for the l.M.s.

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by Shuey21 » Sat Aug 23, 2014 12:15 pm

Allen Reed wrote:To everyone asking for 360s.......I need you to put your promoters hat on and think about this....

do you really think the grove will dump a class that is averaging 15 cars and pay $1000 to win and bring in 360s that "may" average 20-22 cars and start paying $2500 to win plus the entire purse is increased ? Just doesn't make sense financially. Now if we were talking about Lincoln or ( Port the last 2 years ) where they have demonstrated over the years its all about the racing and not just the money ( not canceling after the 5th rain drop and getting the race in even with less than a 3rd of the stands full ) you might have a slight chance.

How did that 360 change work out for Selinsgrove for their regular Saturday races that are not sanctioned URC events or the other series they have on the schedule that the drivers are forced to go ?
Its Selinsgroves first year and counts are rising 21 cars last week for a regular show. :thumbright:
2015 Count: 50

2016: 20
Lincoln - 4
Port Royal - 5
Williamsgrove - 7
Selinsgrove - 3
Susquehanna - 1

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by Allen Reed » Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:22 pm

Shuey21 wrote:
Allen Reed wrote:To everyone asking for 360s.......I need you to put your promoters hat on and think about this....

do you really think the grove will dump a class that is averaging 15 cars and pay $1000 to win and bring in 360s that "may" average 20-22 cars and start paying $2500 to win plus the entire purse is increased ? Just doesn't make sense financially. Now if we were talking about Lincoln or ( Port the last 2 years ) where they have demonstrated over the years its all about the racing and not just the money ( not canceling after the 5th rain drop and getting the race in even with less than a 3rd of the stands full ) you might have a slight chance.

How did that 360 change work out for Selinsgrove for their regular Saturday races that are not sanctioned URC events or the other series they have on the schedule that the drivers are forced to go ?
Its Selinsgroves first year and counts are rising 21 cars last week for a regular show. :thumbright:
21 cars falls right into my guess of 20-22 cars ( I swear I'm not a physic :D )
What is the purse ? Compared to what the groves 358 purse is ?
Will 6 more cars makeup the difference ? No way... even with the added pit passes sold. Also keep in mind when only 15 cars show up your only paying out 15 spots... the total purse is now reduced by $800-$1000 ???

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by NEWBOMB TURK » Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:31 pm

With the light crowds the grove is getting, I don't think they can afford another premier division on a regular basis. Sportsmen and 358 late models seem to be the best fit in between other special shows.
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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by wentworth09w » Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:05 pm

Mr. Port wrote:
hotrodney wrote:
bmd5229 wrote:How does anyone know that if they add the super sportsman to the card on Fridays, the crowds wouldn't increase Fridays, which we all know, wouldn't hurt at all.
The super sportsmen have a faithful following. Adding them on Friday would certainly increase the crowds. Personally I prefer the 358's over the sportsmen but facing reality, 358's are hurting for cars while sportsmen are still drawing 30 strong. I think SLM's would bring less cars than the 358's are if they tried making them a weekly division. Too many LM tracks already.
Exactly, L.M.s race at Bedford, Clinton County, and Potomic on Fridays once the season gets going. Some 358 L.M.s could show up at the Grove to bolster the counts.

I like the 358 Sprints cause the features are Handicapped which makes for great racing and never miss those shows.
Clinton County is quite outside the area in terms of cars to draw from. I think the only ones from this area (this area being Port/SG/Hagerstown) running there are the Yoders. Bedford and Potomac the only real competition and the closest of those is over 100 mi from WG. The closest track to home for me that runs SLM on Friday night is Potomac, and it is about 100 miles and 2.5 hours away. That means it is 100 miles and 2.5 hour for most drivers in this area. There are cars around though -- SG and Port average over 20 a week per track. I think you would draw 20-25 cars weekly to start at WG. More than 358s for sure.

Thanks,
Jeff.

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by wentworth09w » Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:10 pm

Allen Reed wrote:
wentworth09w wrote:
cjettmail wrote:I don't mind the SLM once a year but not every week, Something needs to change. Low car count for 358's, low ARDC ( their not so good at the Grove). 360's low car count. Maybe super sportsman ??
The Grove is a Sprint car track, That needs to stay the same !!
The Super Sportsman are part of the Saturday program, which by the looks of the crowds and car counts is quite successful and should not be bothered with.

Just because you are a sprint car fan does not mean that those are the only types of cars allowed at the track. Super Late Models make more sense than any other division (including 358's and 360's) for Friday's are Williams Grove. Lets be honest, nobody goes to the Grove to see the 358's, and nobody is going to stay away because there are no 358's. I know for a fact however that I don't go to the Grove on Friday (EVER) because they don't race Late Models, and I also know there are many people like me. If they ran 410s and SLMs they would get fans from both types of racing. If they get good fields of SLM I could see their fan count going up by 25% or more.

Thanks,
Jeff.
Wentworth09,

We all get it !!! Your a late model and modified fan. Good for you. WG is fine with their lineup as is.
Are you looking to put the other Friday night late model tracks out of business by have their cars leave for the grove ? Wouldn't it just be easier for you to go to a track that runs the late models on Fridays and have an awesome night of viewing pleasure ?

**** near all your posts are about dumping a sprint class and getting LM's or Modifieds at the Grove, Lincoln, Port , etc.

And I'll save you the time and effort................ YES, it's America, YES you can voice your Opinion, YES I can disagree with it.

I'll make a small friendly wager with you..... Your "sources" that say the late models are in and 358's out are wrong. Next year will be business as usual for the 358's at the grove. You heard it here first :thumbleft:
Well, I don't think either one of our sources are the track manager so nobody knows for sure.

Yes a lot of my posts are related to bringing these types of cars to this area. I like to watch Sprint cars, but I don't like to just watch Sprint cars. I don't have a track close to me on Fridays that run any type of LM. The closest is probably Big Diamond or Potomac which are both in the 2+ hour range. I would love to see one of these tracks pick up these cars and judging by the crowds at LM tracks on Saturday nights I wouldn't be the only person excited to see that. 358s are dying, plain and simple. Even the Sprint guys are saying switch to 360s. You can only keep a division on life support for so long. Maybe they keep them next year maybe they don't, but I can assure that at some point down the road they have to get the axe. I'm sure the track manager knows that too. I can tell you, I've been to one show at WG on Friday this season. Next season if there were SLM I would buy a season ticket and make every race. I know I'm not the only one either.

Thanks,
Jeff.

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by Shuey21 » Sat Aug 23, 2014 2:45 pm

Allen Reed wrote:
Shuey21 wrote:
Allen Reed wrote:To everyone asking for 360s.......I need you to put your promoters hat on and think about this....

do you really think the grove will dump a class that is averaging 15 cars and pay $1000 to win and bring in 360s that "may" average 20-22 cars and start paying $2500 to win plus the entire purse is increased ? Just doesn't make sense financially. Now if we were talking about Lincoln or ( Port the last 2 years ) where they have demonstrated over the years its all about the racing and not just the money ( not canceling after the 5th rain drop and getting the race in even with less than a 3rd of the stands full ) you might have a slight chance.

How did that 360 change work out for Selinsgrove for their regular Saturday races that are not sanctioned URC events or the other series they have on the schedule that the drivers are forced to go ?
Its Selinsgroves first year and counts are rising 21 cars last week for a regular show. :thumbright:
21 cars falls right into my guess of 20-22 cars ( I swear I'm not a physic :D )
What is the purse ? Compared to what the groves 358 purse is ?
Will 6 more cars makeup the difference ? No way... even with the added pit passes sold. Also keep in mind when only 15 cars show up your only paying out 15 spots... the total purse is now reduced by $800-$1000 ???
Purse is much larger and I don't see the Grove paying 360's $2000 to win every week like Selinsgrove does.
2015 Count: 50

2016: 20
Lincoln - 4
Port Royal - 5
Williamsgrove - 7
Selinsgrove - 3
Susquehanna - 1

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by bcy505 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 1:52 am

I guess what I don't understand is, if SLM are so much better than 358s, why does half the crowd leave Port Royal (my most attended track) after the 410 feature? The way I see it is, racing is very regional. Meaning, central PA is sprint territory, where as Virginia/Maryland is more Late Models, no right or wrong, just location and what people seem to enjoy the most, in that area. Eastern PA, to me, seems to be more modified territory etc.

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by Warthog » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:22 am

bcy505 wrote:I guess what I don't understand is, if SLM are so much better than 358s, why does half the crowd leave Port Royal (my most attended track) after the 410 feature? The way I see it is, racing is very regional. Meaning, central PA is sprint territory, where as Virginia/Maryland is more Late Models, no right or wrong, just location and what people seem to enjoy the most, in that area. Eastern PA, to me, seems to be more modified territory etc.
Agree on all points, but I think aside from people being influenced by what they are used to seeing as the "top" class at their local tracks, there's an aspect of how it's promoted that comes into play. If the promotion tells the crowd that the 410s are the feature attraction, it implies that whatever comes after is something worth missing. Also, I expect that at least some of the people leaving after the 410s are family or friends of the 410 teams, heading to the pits or to otherwise go to their post-race activities. If the roles were reversed and the "support" class ran before the 410s, people who were just there for that class would likely also leave before the 410s, because "their" race would be over for the night.

But what if the track promoted (and paid) the 410s and SLMs as "co-headliners", without designating one or the other as the "top" class? (Maybe Port does this - I live south of Baltimore,and have only been there once). Maybe even switching the order of the features on alternate weeks so that fans of one would stick around to see "their" class when it runs last, and maybe build an interest in the other class to the point where they might stick around on the nights when that class runs last? Or maybe run some sort of points thing where a 410 team is linked to an SLM team for a combined points championship - will Hodnett and Yoder beat Dewease and Covert for the title?

Part of good racing promotion is the art of convincing people that they want to see something that they didn't know that they were interested in. It means trying new things once in a while, not just sticking to "the way it's always been".
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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by Ron Campbell » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:46 am

Wentworth09,

Let me clear this up for you before you stress yourself out :D

My source is not a track manager......... it's the track owner, Alan Kreitzer ( Lincoln speedway )

About 8 weeks ago Alan called a 358 owners / drivers meeting in the pits at Lincoln. The meeting was to address all the rumors of the demise / slow painful death of the 358s ( per the top cheerleader, Wentworth & a few others ). He started the meeting saying that Lincoln, WILLIAMSGROVE, and Trailways are 100% committed to the 358s. They are going NOWHERE. He did say that they are thinking about changing the wings to the 5x5 that the 410s run........BUT...that will be left up to a vote by the team owners to decide whether to change them or not. He stated that the tracks feel the reason the car counts are down is strictly an economy issue ( that I agree with 100% ). The reality is that most teams can only afford to run 1 night a week in this poor economy. If you can only afford to run 1 night a week, what night will most teams pick ? Saturday......that way teams do not have to leave work early and rush to the track on fridays. Wake up late on saturday morning, take it easy then head to the race track...makes sense to me. That is the reason Lincoln has averaged 26-30 358s this season. He did ask for any suggestions to help reduce costs be directed to him and he would take them to the other 2 tracks for discussion.

can we now please let it go.....

Ron Campbell
358 & 410 Car owner

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