Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

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Ron Campbell
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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by Ron Campbell » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:54 am

Warthog wrote:
bcy505 wrote:I guess what I don't understand is, if SLM are so much better than 358s, why does half the crowd leave Port Royal (my most attended track) after the 410 feature? The way I see it is, racing is very regional. Meaning, central PA is sprint territory, where as Virginia/Maryland is more Late Models, no right or wrong, just location and what people seem to enjoy the most, in that area. Eastern PA, to me, seems to be more modified territory etc.
Agree on all points, but I think aside from people being influenced by what they are used to seeing as the "top" class at their local tracks, there's an aspect of how it's promoted that comes into play. If the promotion tells the crowd that the 410s are the feature attraction, it implies that whatever comes after is something worth missing. Also, I expect that at least some of the people leaving after the 410s are family or friends of the 410 teams, heading to the pits or to otherwise go to their post-race activities. If the roles were reversed and the "support" class ran before the 410s, people who were just there for that class would likely also leave before the 410s, because "their" race would be over for the night.

But what if the track promoted (and paid) the 410s and SLMs as "co-headliners", without designating one or the other
as the "top" class? (Maybe Port does this - I live south of Baltimore,and have only been there once). Maybe even switching the order of the features on alternate weeks so that fans of one would stick around to see "their" class when
it runs last, and maybe build an interest in the other class to the point where they might stick around on the nights
when that class runs last? Or maybe run some sort of points thing where a 410 team is linked to an SLM team for a
combined points championship - will Hodnett and Yoder beat Dewease and Covert for the title?





Part of good racing promotion is the art of convincing people that they want to see something that they didn't know
that they were interested in. It means trying new things once in a while, not just sticking to "the way it's always been".[/
quote]

:thumbleft: Excellent post !!!!!!!

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by Shuey21 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 11:51 am

Im not sure of Port but at Selinsgrove the crowd never leaves before the Late Models. Most 410 fans do not like other divisions its as simple as that.
2015 Count: 50

2016: 20
Lincoln - 4
Port Royal - 5
Williamsgrove - 7
Selinsgrove - 3
Susquehanna - 1

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by DavidM » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:16 pm

When I first started going to the Grove in 1979 it was Sprints and Late Models. You had the top two divisions in the area and the best drivers in the region racing weekly at the Grove. You place the SLM's their weekly and start handicapping you'll see better racing then the once a year race that takes place now.
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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by bmd5229 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:20 pm

I love watching 358 and late models. I think the reason late models don't run their feature first is because they tend to take forever. They usually take around 30-45 minutes depending on the night to finish. Nobody wants to watch that and lose interest after all the yellow flags. This is just my opinion but I know I hear it in the stands they get tired of the yellow flags of the late models. At Lincoln i would be okay with 358 as a headline division. They are fun to watch there compared to the grove. The only down fall is the 358 there usually attract the lower budget, not so good teams, so they tend to abuse the 3 caution rule before the heat race is over.
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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by bcy505 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:23 pm

Warthog wrote:
bcy505 wrote:I guess what I don't understand is, if SLM are so much better than 358s, why does half the crowd leave Port Royal (my most attended track) after the 410 feature? The way I see it is, racing is very regional. Meaning, central PA is sprint territory, where as Virginia/Maryland is more Late Models, no right or wrong, just location and what people seem to enjoy the most, in that area. Eastern PA, to me, seems to be more modified territory etc.
Agree on all points, but I think aside from people being influenced by what they are used to seeing as the "top" class at their local tracks, there's an aspect of how it's promoted that comes into play. If the promotion tells the crowd that the 410s are the feature attraction, it implies that whatever comes after is something worth missing. Also, I expect that at least some of the people leaving after the 410s are family or friends of the 410 teams, heading to the pits or to otherwise go to their post-race activities. If the roles were reversed and the "support" class ran before the 410s, people who were just there for that class would likely also leave before the 410s, because "their" race would be over for the night.

But what if the track promoted (and paid) the 410s and SLMs as "co-headliners", without designating one or the other as the "top" class? (Maybe Port does this - I live south of Baltimore,and have only been there once). Maybe even switching the order of the features on alternate weeks so that fans of one would stick around to see "their" class when it runs last, and maybe build an interest in the other class to the point where they might stick around on the nights when that class runs last? Or maybe run some sort of points thing where a 410 team is linked to an SLM team for a combined points championship - will Hodnett and Yoder beat Dewease and Covert for the title?

Part of good racing promotion is the art of convincing people that they want to see something that they didn't know that they were interested in. It means trying new things once in a while, not just sticking to "the way it's always been".
I agree with the post for the most part, and appreciate and am open to all ideas. But let's look at Lernerville, said to be the only track that runs all three main divisions on a weekly basis. Sprints run their feature first, after that I would say roughly half of the crowd leaves, then late models and modifiedes run (can't remember the order) in between the second and third features another 25% leaves. So by the third feature the crowd is very sparse. Part of this is because of the time of night, kids getting tired etc. But I believe you hit a key point, alternate which feature is run first.

Last thing I'll add, sprints, SLM, and modifiedes all affect the track differently, I believe that plays a role in the order they are run.

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by wentworth09w » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:48 pm

Ron Campbell wrote:Wentworth09,

Let me clear this up for you before you stress yourself out :D

My source is not a track manager......... it's the track owner, Alan Kreitzer ( Lincoln speedway )

About 8 weeks ago Alan called a 358 owners / drivers meeting in the pits at Lincoln. The meeting was to address all the rumors of the demise / slow painful death of the 358s ( per the top cheerleader, Wentworth & a few others ). He started the meeting saying that Lincoln, WILLIAMSGROVE, and Trailways are 100% committed to the 358s. They are going NOWHERE. He did say that they are thinking about changing the wings to the 5x5 that the 410s run........BUT...that will be left up to a vote by the team owners to decide whether to change them or not. He stated that the tracks feel the reason the car counts are down is strictly an economy issue ( that I agree with 100% ). The reality is that most teams can only afford to run 1 night a week in this poor economy. If you can only afford to run 1 night a week, what night will most teams pick ? Saturday......that way teams do not have to leave work early and rush to the track on fridays. Wake up late on saturday morning, take it easy then head to the race track...makes sense to me. That is the reason Lincoln has averaged 26-30 358s this season. He did ask for any suggestions to help reduce costs be directed to him and he would take them to the other 2 tracks for discussion.

can we now please let it go.....

Ron Campbell
358 & 410 Car owner
It seems odd that both Trail Way and Williams Grove would cooperate considering they run against each other. Either way I don't think I'll ever stop saying that if SLM were at the Grove on Friday nights I would certainly get a season ticket, otherwise I won't be there. I'm also saying that if 358s were dropped and SLM were added you would get a significant net positive in fan attendance. Sprint Car fans will be there because of the 410s either way. LM fans would also come out if you had SLM.

I'm not saying the track is going to go under if they don't have me buying a season pass, WG is one of the most successful tracks in all of Dirt racing. But if you are ever going to talk about improving it, then you can't just expect to have the same old same old. Even if you had 410s, 358s, and 305s you wouldn't get any more fans -- you already have all of the Sprint fans in the area. If you want to bring new people in, you need to add a division that is not the same as the rest of them.

Thanks,
Jeff.

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by ironboss » Sun Aug 24, 2014 10:11 pm

I know the Super Late Models would get me to the Grove a lot more. I loved going to Lincoln back in the 70's and 80's and getting to watch both Sprints and Late Models co-headline on a weekly basis. It was the best show in town!

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by CH_88 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:41 am

The Grove is fine just the way it is as far as divisions are concerned. I love going there and watching 2 classes of sprint cars. Maybe at one time The Grove wasn't a sprint car track but it is now and that's just the way it is. The way I see it, there's already a bunch of tracks that run Late Models, if you want to see Late Models, go support one of them, just like sprint car fans choose to go to sprint car tracks. If you like both, there's always Port Royal and Selinsgrove. I think we have a nice mix in central Pa. There's a little something for everyone and it's all within a reasonable distance. This is just my opinion but I wouldn't walk across the street to watch Late Models because they do nothing for me. I'm much closer to Bedford and Hesston than I am to the Central Pa sprint car circuit but I choose to travel and watch what I like instead of b!tching because Bedford and Hesston race Late Models instead of Sprint Cars. There's plenty of places that race Late Models, in fact they far out number Sprint Car tracks so go support them. As far as the 358's are concerned, even though car counts are down, I've really become a fan of them and I personally hope The Grove keeps them around as long as they are getting enough cars to justify doing so. Even though most nights, the track is used up by the time their feature pushes off, I think they put on some pretty good shows.
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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by BigRightRear » Tue Aug 26, 2014 2:57 pm

I am certain this will be interpreted in the wrong way by the usual suspects...but after nearly 50 years of watching support divisions come and go, the best thing about the 358 car counts now at WG is the two heat no consi format.

Less screwing around and an earlier night.

I figure the lower car count do not help offset for the cost of running the speedway, but it is the best compromise for $1 less than the $15 dollar show that I prefer.
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Lincoln = 1845 ft. = .35 mile T3=124 MPH
Eldora = 2287 ft. = .43 mile T3=135 MPH
Port = 2716 ft. = .51 mile T3=TBD
Grove = 2792 ft. = .53 mile T3=135 MPH
Selinsgrove = 2847 ft. = .54 mile T1=136 MPH

2015: 43 Races
Grove: 17 / Lincoln: 13 / Port: 4 / Susky: 5 / Path Valley: 2 / Trailway: 1 /. ISMA @ Waterford New London: 1

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by buzzkill » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:10 pm

After the last program, twin 20's and ARDC, I almost had to end my 38 year relationship with the old lady, The Grove. It may have been the least entertaining program I've ever seen. Add to it the quick cancellations (like last Friday) and its becoming rather appealing to find other things to do. I hate that I feel this way and don't want to change my Friday routine as nothing gets my heart going like a good night of racing.

They (WG) need to do something to strengthen the 410 car count. The Grove is the anchor (in a good way) of the 410's in the region and the stronger the 410 division is the better it is for the track. I never thought the 358's were a good idea, but was proven wrong for many years. Lately the division has been less entertaining. I can't help but feel if the 410's were stronger on a whole then the 358's would be too. A handful of the "better" 358 teams have moved up to 410's (which is good) but it doesn't seem there are new 358 teams. If the 358's are no longer the feeder class and/or entertaining, then perhaps the sun should set on them. Rotate SLM's, 358 LM's, SS, 305's, URC, etc.
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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by hotrodney » Tue Aug 26, 2014 4:19 pm

Ron Campbell wrote:
Warthog wrote:
bcy505 wrote:I guess what I don't understand is, if SLM are so much better than 358s, why does half the crowd leave Port Royal (my most attended track) after the 410 feature? The way I see it is, racing is very regional. Meaning, central PA is sprint territory, where as Virginia/Maryland is more Late Models, no right or wrong, just location and what people seem to enjoy the most, in that area. Eastern PA, to me, seems to be more modified territory etc.
Agree on all points, but I think aside from people being influenced by what they are used to seeing as the "top" class at their local tracks, there's an aspect of how it's promoted that comes into play. If the promotion tells the crowd that the 410s are the feature attraction, it implies that whatever comes after is something worth missing. Also, I expect that at least some of the people leaving after the 410s are family or friends of the 410 teams, heading to the pits or to otherwise go to their post-race activities. If the roles were reversed and the "support" class ran before the 410s, people who were just there for that class would likely also leave before the 410s, because "their" race would be over for the night.

But what if the track promoted (and paid) the 410s and SLMs as "co-headliners", without designating one or the other
as the "top" class? (Maybe Port does this - I live south of Baltimore,and have only been there once). Maybe even switching the order of the features on alternate weeks so that fans of one would stick around to see "their" class when
it runs last, and maybe build an interest in the other class to the point where they might stick around on the nights
when that class runs last? Or maybe run some sort of points thing where a 410 team is linked to an SLM team for a
combined points championship - will Hodnett and Yoder beat Dewease and Covert for the title?





Part of good racing promotion is the art of convincing people that they want to see something that they didn't know
that they were interested in. It means trying new things once in a while, not just sticking to "the way it's always been".[/
quote]

:thumbleft: Excellent post !!!!!!!
Not exactly, the top class almost always refers to the fastest division that runs at a particular track. I can't think of any instances where it's not. Sprints Cup series is the top class of nascar. Top fuel is the top class in drag racing, etc. Selinsgrove runs the pro-stocks first EVERY week and no one is fooled into thinking they are the top class. It gives the fans ample time to hit the restroom and concessions. Most fans are smart enough to know which divisions they prefer without any help from the promoter. A lot of fans, like myself, enjoy many different divisions. 410's, 360's, SLM's, Mods, sportsmen are all OK with me. There's some that just like 410's and a few that just like LM's or another division. Most fans don't leave before the LM's at Port or Selinsgrove. Only a few do but it does depend on the hour. The only track I've seen that happen is when the Grove has LM's.
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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by wentworth09w » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:50 am

I don't think that applies as much when you are talking about two separate disciplines of racing. When the fans know they have the best full bodied drivers, and the best open wheel drivers I think they respect both divisions.

Thanks,
Jeff.

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by Duane » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:43 pm

I'd like to see a closer (then grandview) Central Pa track run 358 mods!! ;) Loved the Sprint & Mod, Sportsman & Mod shows at Penn National!! :dance: :dance: :dance:

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by poolguy » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:23 pm

Duane wrote:I'd like to see a closer (then grandview) Central Pa track run 358 mods!! ;) Loved the Sprint & Mod, Sportsman & Mod shows at Penn National!! :dance: :dance: :dance:
:yessss:



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Heck...even the street stocks were great at Penn National on Sunday nights!

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Re: Williams Grove 2015 Schedule ????

Post by lchighperformance » Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:00 pm

I remember being in the pits at a drivers meeting at a place called Silver Springs and Alan saying that "there is no reason for the teams to be concerned because the track is going nowhere and they are 100% commited to the racers and the show" so his assurance holds very little water at this time.

We also had a meeting during the later stages of the KARS 358 series about whether or not to allow for open head rules. Despite the warnings of the future, some of the teams (most of the low budget ones) supported the move, and now you have 15 cars on a friday night vs 40. The funny thing is the teams of that day that had money to burn DID NOT want to make the change!

There used to be handicapped racing (completely unfair to the fast guys but....) that made for an awesome show. People would get excited to see thier driver work through the field to get the win.

By the nature of racing a lot of the money aspect has been involuntarily self-inflicted. 700>800>900> now approaching 950 to 1000 hp cost money. 358 motors at $40,000-410 motors at $60,000+ (a nascar engine can be bought from Hendrick race ready for $52,000) and people wonder why counts are down. There is not enough publicity in a friday night show to get the type of sponsorship to support this kind of spending. 20years ago a 410 didnt really cost enough for many engine builders to do them full time. There are probably more in this area now than there used to be in the entire country.

Look at what nascar has had to do in the last 10 years to survive. People are just foolish to think that the same ol' shows at the local tracks will be around in another 10 years if nothing changes. Track/car owners need to get together and seriously evaluate the situation to decide what, not if, things need to change. Apparently what they have been doing the last 5 or so years isnt working. More high profile team owners have dropped contending 410 teams due to funding in the last 4 years than probably the 20 yrs before that all the way up to the outlaws.

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