Who would have thought?

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wentworth09w
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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by wentworth09w » Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:30 pm

I have the answer,

Look at all the tracks in the area, wherever you see the term "358 Sprint Cars" replace it with "Super Late Models".

Just imagine, weekly at Lincoln.

410 Sprints, SLM, and some support division. I'd never go anywhere else.

Selinsgrove would be even better, double SLM!

Thanks,
Jeff.

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Wax
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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by Wax » Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:35 pm

well,2 experts on here have spoken,i reckon this thread is :lalalala:

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by kossuth » Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:53 pm

NEWBOMB TURK wrote: I would defiantly have to disagree on cost of parts. No way a cast iron block costs what an aluminum block cost.
When you start talking about blocks that are intended for racing there isn't a whole bunch of differences as far as costs go. Case in point I did a quick search on Summit Racing just to show. Here are a bunch of steel aftermarket SBC blocks. Various bores and such. They start $1600 and go to $7500 depending on your costs/desires. http://www.summitracing.com/search/make ... =Ascending Now talking about an aluminum block obviously the choices are a lot smaller but you get into the aluminum block party starting around $4500 or so depending on price. Here are two links http://www.summitracing.com/search/make ... =Ascending and the Brodix blocks http://www.summitracing.com/search/make ... =Ascending
I can't see a steel crank coming anywhere near a titanium crank.
Not true. Here's the WOO rule book. No titanium in the bottom end. Section 15.1 paragraph H. http://woosprint.com/images/stories/Mai ... lebook.pdf
I've heard $5,000.00 for a rebuild every ten races on a 410. 360 start the year off fresh and then one time after that. I'd like to see some prices. I would think a top of the line 410 is about $10,000.00 more than a 360 at least. Then you have the rebuilds.
Aside from a catastrophic failure I would really think that to freshen a 410 would in all honesty cost you about the same as if you were to refreshen a 360/358. Being there is a limited amount of titanium in both motors most of your costs in a refresh would be common to both motors. While I have never done a refresh on a sprint car motor I can say I've done it on my little LSx motor and these are the items I'm sure they would also check on a 410/358/360

1. Pull the rods/crank, magnaflux and check for tolerances. If within tolerance - refinish. Any cracks or wear beyond tolerance - replace
2. Clean and check block/cylinder bores against pistons. If bore is out of spec then rehone if material/rules allow. If pistons are out of spec for bore/out of round then replace pistons. Rings will always be replaced
3. In my little truck motor we just replace the pump everytime being it's a wet sump setup and they are cheap enough ($250). I'm sure these motors they don't replace everytime due to costs, but I'm sure they disassemble, clean, rebuild, and flow test the pump. If it doesn't meet spec it is replaced.
4. Never dealt with methanol, but I'm sure they do the same here as the oil pump.
5. Inspect oil tank and oil lines. Replace as needed.
6. Once piston sizes have been determined the pistons, rings, rods, and crank will all be balanced as an assembly.
7. Go through the heads and redo valves, new valve springs, valve seals, and keepers. Inspect and replace retainers as needed
8. Inspect cam, cam bearings, and lifters for abnormal wear and replace all.
9. Replace all head studs
10. Clean all components (for the fifth time) and reassemble all with new gaskets and seals.

If you break it into it's smaller pieces I really can't imagine where it would be that much different other than the frequency. So if this is what all they do when a motor is refreshed, Yeah I would say $5,000 is a rough ballpark figure knowing as much/little as I do. When looking for some additional info I found this on the Internet. I figured you would find this interesting. It basically covers a father/daughter race team out in California where he runs 410s and she runs 360s. And what all he has done during motor refreshes/rebuilds. Kinda interesting. http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/c ... ewall.html
I doubt ASCS rules can't be enforced. The price of everything is going up, from toilet paper to sprint car engines. Not much R&D being done on toilet paper.
But you can bet your bottom dollar there is some engine builder out there right now working on something new to give his motors that little bit of an edge.

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by kossuth » Sun Mar 30, 2014 8:55 pm

Wax wrote:well,2 experts on here have spoken,i reckon this thread is :lalalala:
If you are talking about me and Newbomb? Hardly LOL.... Just know enough to get myself in trouble... :mrgreen:

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by Wax » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:06 pm

kossuth wrote:
Wax wrote:well,2 experts on here have spoken,i reckon this thread is :lalalala:
If you are talking about me and Newbomb? Hardly LOL.... Just know enough to get myself in trouble... :mrgreen:


no,Too Dumb,and 420.

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by hotrodney » Sun Mar 30, 2014 9:42 pm

Bill Mc wrote:Its all ready being said if car counts don't go up significantly Selinsgrove might go back to 358's. I'm still waiting to hear where all these new 360 teams are going to come from. I have yet to talk to anyone who switched to a 360 this year just to go race there. My opinion the track doubled their purse for the exact same car count. Hope I'm wrong and it all works but I just don't see it happening.
Well at least the purse increase is a good thing. Charlie has always been very good with his payouts. Hopefully that will attract more cars but more money doesn't always bring more cars. That one has always remained a mystery to me.
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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by Sprintcars100 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:29 am

If you replace 358s at Lincoln where do you expect to get cars from?with Hagerstown back to running them there's already 4 Saturday night tracks with super latemodels Winchester is struggling bad with car counts Hagerstown selinsgrove and port may get enough cars for a full feature but that's about it
2015 races:
5 Lincoln
2 Hagerstown
5 Williamsgrove
11 Port Royal
14 Path Valley
1 Selinsgrove
1 Susky
1 New Eygpt
1 Kutztown Action Track USA
1 Uttica Rome
1 Kokomo In.
1 Pittsburgh's Pennsylvania Motor Speedway
1 Gas City I 69 In.

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by kossuth » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:29 am

Sprintcars100 wrote:If you replace 358s at Lincoln where do you expect to get cars from?with Hagerstown back to running them there's already 4 Saturday night tracks with super latemodels Winchester is struggling bad with car counts Hagerstown selinsgrove and port may get enough cars for a full feature but that's about it
Your also forgetting about Bedford and Cumberland isn't too far off either. Long story short the pickings are slim for super lates.

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by HotRodBob » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:34 am

I have a novel idea. UNHOOK THE CARS! Make the extra HP irrelevent and put the race back in the drivers hands. You can do this with revised wing and tire rules.

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by DavidM » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:45 am

HotRodBob wrote:I have a novel idea. UNHOOK THE CARS! Make the extra HP irrelevent and put the race back in the drivers hands. You can do this with revised wing and tire rules.
Or just remove the wings all together!
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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by wentworth09w » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:15 am

Sprintcars100 wrote:If you replace 358s at Lincoln where do you expect to get cars from?with Hagerstown back to running them there's already 4 Saturday night tracks with super latemodels Winchester is struggling bad with car counts Hagerstown selinsgrove and port may get enough cars for a full feature but that's about it
There are cars out there, and Lincoln is a high profile track too. The trick would be to give them the night off whenever the 3SF series is racing. That would make Lincoln an attractive option to those who would like to run the full 3SF series.

I think if Lincoln made the switch you might see some veteran LLM drivers move up to SLM, it wouldn't be much of a stretch for drivers like Knaub and Sagi. I think in the first season you would likely see 12-16 cars and it would only increase from there with a decent payout and some touring events scheduled as well. I think the fans would be more excited about SLM than 358s also, considering people got up and left after the 410 race last week even with the 358s and LLMs still to come. SLM and 410 are both the top level of their respective type of racing, this I think would make fans more interested.

You would also see occasional visits by drivers like Rick Eckert who lives in York. He seems to be a home town favorite as I see shirts of his walking around at WG and Lincoln quite often.

Lincoln should run
410 Sprints, SLM's and rotate the third division between Street Stocks, Legends, Mini Sprints and 305 Sprints.

Thanks,
Jeff.

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wentworth09w
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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by wentworth09w » Mon Mar 31, 2014 9:17 am

DavidM wrote:
HotRodBob wrote:I have a novel idea. UNHOOK THE CARS! Make the extra HP irrelevent and put the race back in the drivers hands. You can do this with revised wing and tire rules.
Or just remove the wings all together!
I like this idea, would love to see Trail Way or any 358 track just do away with the wings. I would be more excited for that race than the 410 race!

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by GOSHOW » Mon Mar 31, 2014 11:00 am

Back when KARS 358's started a claim rule was tossed around, but most motors were being built out of junk yard blocks and heads. There was a rule originally that you couldn't even use a new frame, it had to be used. That just goes to show what the class was intended for and how it has gotten so out of hand. The new injections and head rules have ruined this class from what it was intended. Back in 2000 to 2006 we could still run a stock 350 machined block and a standard 2 7/16 injection and be competitive. Hard situation to reverse and fix now! I love the 358's just don't like what has happened to them and would not start again at the cost. You may as well run a used 410 you can buy 2 for what a top 358 cost.

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by trapper88x » Mon Mar 31, 2014 3:19 pm

GOSHOW wrote:Back when KARS 358's started a claim rule was tossed around, but most motors were being built out of junk yard blocks and heads. There was a rule originally that you couldn't even use a new frame, it had to be used. That just goes to show what the class was intended for and how it has gotten so out of hand. The new injections and head rules have ruined this class from what it was intended. Back in 2000 to 2006 we could still run a stock 350 machined block and a standard 2 7/16 injection and be competitive. Hard situation to reverse and fix now! I love the 358's just don't like what has happened to them and would not start again at the cost. You may as well run a used 410 you can buy 2 for what a top 358 cost.
Maybe this is why some of the 358 teams have moved up to the 410's? :dontknow:

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Re: Who would have thought?

Post by g2aacc » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:41 pm

wentworth09w wrote:
DavidM wrote:
HotRodBob wrote:I have a novel idea. UNHOOK THE CARS! Make the extra HP irrelevent and put the race back in the drivers hands. You can do this with revised wing and tire rules.
Or just remove the wings all together!
I like this idea, would love to see Trail Way or any 358 track just do away with the wings. I would be more excited for that race than the 410 race!

Great idea. :yessss: I've been to all but 3 USAC Eastern Storm races and the crowds have been strong. Give the Super Sportsmans credit for the Path Valley deal. Should be fun to watch.
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