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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:04 pm 
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NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
GOSHOW wrote:
Back when KARS 358's started a claim rule was tossed around, but most motors were being built out of junk yard blocks and heads. There was a rule originally that you couldn't even use a new frame, it had to be used. That just goes to show what the class was intended for and how it has gotten so out of hand. The new injections and head rules have ruined this class from what it was intended. Back in 2000 to 2006 we could still run a stock 350 machined block and a standard 2 7/16 injection and be competitive. Hard situation to reverse and fix now! I love the 358's just don't like what has happened to them and would not start again at the cost. You may as well run a used 410 you can buy 2 for what a top 358 cost.


The tracks, Grove, Lincoln and Selinsgrove are to blame for the mess they created and are in. When KARS was started it was a separate group sorta like the WoO. I think the owner of KARS charged a sanctioning fee to have them at their track. They also had rules, a point fund and a payout. The three tracks said well the hell with that we'll run on our own. The beginning of the end.



EXACTLY.. :thumbright:


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:59 pm 
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NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
I still disagree! Your throwing around generalities. Be specific!

If a 410 cost $10,000.00 more than a 358/360 then something must cost more. http://riderracingengines.com/engines.htm
Wow, I guess you didn't read my post at all before you replied. I gave you the links to all the bare blocks that a large supplier has available and you ask me to be more specific? Seriously??? I would hope you would have the power to deduce that there is in reality anywhere from a $3,500 to nothing difference depending on options between a iron or aluminum block, but I guess that was too much work and thinking for you to do.

As for what all is being done for the additional $10,000 of work? I would have to guess a lot of it is the difference in the injection. Remember 410s run 16 nozzles not 8 like 358/360 motors. The additional plumbing for the head down nozzles, the machine work to the heads for the down nozzles, the down nozzles themselves, and I'm sure there is more work done to the heads as far as porting goes than a 358/360. I would have to imagine that is the majority of the $10,000 right there.

Most of that is a one time cost though as long as you don't blow it sky high. During refreshes castings are reused most of the time unless warped or the bore in a block is beyond tolerance. Not sure if those blocks can be resleeved or not. I would like to think so but have no idea.

Looking at it that way, yeah it's $10,000 more, but if you take care of your gear you won't be replacing heads or a block every 10 or so races. The cost difference isn't nearly as much when you factor in what you get paid with 410s vs 358s or 360s.

When you sit back and look at it it's pretty clear why the other divisions their car counts are suffering.
Btw here is what Knoxville paid its 410,360, and 305 drivers last year. I imagine our local tracks are probably pretty similar. http://www.knoxvilleraceway.com/Article/1593


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 1:16 pm 
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bkahn67 wrote:
I'm sure the cost of a super sportsman motor has increased since the divisions inception, and I'm also sure the lap times have gotten quicker over the years, it may take longer for the sportsman to push the cost to run one past the point of sanity but most likely it will happen, give it some time.


I'll agree with you on that, but the cost increase of a sportsman motor is mostly due to inflation. A crankshaft today does not cost the same as that exact crank shaft in 1984. The increase cost of a 358 motor is a different story.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:41 pm 
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Last edited by bkahn67 on Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:46 pm 
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Don't be scared... Name names... I was under the belief that all local 305 races were racesaver sanctioned.

As for racesaver controlling costs.. Tell me more! I know that there are racesaver legal engines that are being raced locally that cost $20 to $25k...


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:05 pm 
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Cobra wrote:
Don't be scared... Name names... I was under the belief that all local 305 races were racesaver sanctioned.

As for racesaver controlling costs.. Tell me more! I know that there are racesaver legal engines that are being raced locally that cost $20 to $25k...

i have been following the 305 stuff a little bit and there ARE motors going 20-25k. i ASSUME they are racesave legal because they run racesaver races but i believe in NY they run different rules and there was some problems last summer stemming from guys wanting to run NY shows and were told that if they run in NY and come back to NJ, they would have to get their motors resealed.....
another hint.....watch the hoseheads classifieds....there are used 305's that are going for more than used 12 head 410's.....how did that happen?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 7:21 pm 
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bkahn67"]
GOSHOW wrote:
NEWBOMB TURK wrote:
GOSHOW wrote:
Back when KARS 358's started a claim rule was tossed around, but most motors were being built out of junk yard blocks and heads. There was a rule originally that you couldn't even use a new frame, it had to be used. That just goes to show what the class was intended for and how it has gotten so out of hand. The new injections and head rules have ruined this class from what it was intended. Back in 2000 to 2006 we could still run a stock 350 machined block and a standard 2 7/16 injection and be competitive. Hard situation to reverse and fix now! I love the 358's just don't like what has happened to them and would not start again at the cost. You may as well run a used 410 you can buy 2 for what a top 358 cost.

The tracks, Grove, Lincoln and Selinsgrove are to blame for the mess they created and are in. When KARS was started it was a separate group sorta like the WoO. I think the owner of KARS charged a sanctioning fee to have them at their track. They also had rules, a point fund and a payout. The three tracks said well the hell with that we'll run on our own. The beginning of the end.



EXACTLY.. :thumbright:
So if the tracks would have continued to pay the Kars sanctioning fee's the motor costs would have stayed the same? Really? Certainly hasn't worked in any other division. The Race Saver 305's have been in existence for quite a few years and it has worked just fine but, now we have other 305 divisions with much more open motor rules, drivers and owners have the choice to stay in the race savers budget 305 class or go with another faster more expensive 305 division. Guess which one most teams are moving towards, here's a hint the ones that Mr Grimes doesnt have to seal your motor for. Those darn tracks.

QuiteOBVIOUSLY the cost would have risen! Inflation however would have been the BOGGA BOO.

I like your idea in your last post of just forgetting about any rules because all teams cheat anyway! :thumbright:

Perhaps we could get the Highway Dept to take down all speed limit signs as well, since as you said people still speed? :dontknow:


GOOD EVENING!

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 10:46 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 11:36 am 
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Let's lose the term cheaters and replace it with thieves.. Basically anyone outside the rules trying to gain an advantage is stealing from their fellow competitors.
The easy answer is not smaller engines but rather larger with less wing and a hard tire.
And maybe a cubic inch minimum in the future so that the torque unhooks the cars


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 12:12 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:31 pm 
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bkahn67 wrote:
You guys are probably right, sorry I was under the impression that the racesavers motors were still in the 8 to 12K range, when i saw the the $20 and $25K 305's on hoseheads I didnt see the racesaver name attached, Im sure you guys (c4 and cobra) have forgotten more than I will ever know about motors, thanks for proving my point though, Weather or not the evil tracks would have run the KARS 358's or their own 358 class prices would have gone up and not only because of inflation, as newbomb was kind enough to point out to us :handoverhead: . Again its the teams wiling to pay 25k for a 305 so they can win a racesaver race locally that have completley lost their minds, and that is why everyone will have to follow suit if they want to win or compete for the win, and pretty soon the 305 will cost the same as a 358,360, So again who's fault is it that motor prices continue to rise? the builder or the guy willing to pay the price to be faster? because it cant be the tracks as Cobra and C4 pointed out, racesaver , has a great motor rule package that includes sealing the motors , and yet the motor costs have still doubled. Someone please explain to Newbomb that my calling racers cheaters is on point, if not why do we need to tech? Racers, by nature, will do what ever it takes to be faster, call it research and development or pushing the envelope, if its illegal its cheating, but only if you get caught.
I say again let them put a claim price on the motor for what should be the target price for the division and that nonsense will stop if teams would have the stones to actually do it.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:27 pm 
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kossuth wrote:
bkahn67 wrote:
You guys are probably right, sorry I was under the impression that the racesavers motors were still in the 8 to 12K range, when i saw the the $20 and $25K 305's on hoseheads I didnt see the racesaver name attached, Im sure you guys (c4 and cobra) have forgotten more than I will ever know about motors, thanks for proving my point though, Weather or not the evil tracks would have run the KARS 358's or their own 358 class prices would have gone up and not only because of inflation, as newbomb was kind enough to point out to us :handoverhead: . Again its the teams wiling to pay 25k for a 305 so they can win a racesaver race locally that have completley lost their minds, and that is why everyone will have to follow suit if they want to win or compete for the win, and pretty soon the 305 will cost the same as a 358,360, So again who's fault is it that motor prices continue to rise? the builder or the guy willing to pay the price to be faster? because it cant be the tracks as Cobra and C4 pointed out, racesaver , has a great motor rule package that includes sealing the motors , and yet the motor costs have still doubled. Someone please explain to Newbomb that my calling racers cheaters is on point, if not why do we need to tech? Racers, by nature, will do what ever it takes to be faster, call it research and development or pushing the envelope, if its illegal its cheating, but only if you get caught.
I say again let them put a claim price on the motor for what should be the target price for the division and that nonsense will stop if teams would have the stones to actually do it.


the guys with the "stones" will be the ones that put 25k into a 305 and then take the motor that beat them, claim it and open it up to see why they got beat....then take that motor, and their 25k motor and put the same tricks in both.....claimer classes are designed for motors that are basically junkyard motors with a few goodies added in their garage....not full blown race motors that were built professionally or semi professionally. french had a good idea with the racesaver series but, like everything else, politics and money is rapidly driving the prices up.
i still think wingless cars on a 1/4 to 3/8 track with purses around what indiana pays at weekly shows would work. any motor size, no tech and 2 or 3 choices (on the harder side of the scale) of right rear tire from any manufacturer would bring back some exciting shows for the fans and a ton less money spent by owners. you can find decent 12 head 410's for around 10k that wont win locally with a wing but would be perfect for a wingless car....put it in a 6500-7500 decent used roller and can be racing wingless for what it costs for a new 600 micro.........or buy a 20-25k 305 and put it in a new maxim for a total investment of 40k or more and go run racesaver races for less purse money.......


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:38 pm 
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I continue to disagree with this cheating can't be stopped. That's totally absurd. It can be stopped. The answer isn't, well just let them go, then when racing is so expensive that there are no longer any competitors the game of who can outspend who will be over. Of course there will be a winner and a loser. The winner the one who still has money left. The loser will be everybody who loves racing. Quite obviously if you walk around with blinders and earmuffs on and your head up your ***, race teams are going to cheat. This is just how people are. This is all aspects of life. Not just racing. You have to have rules that there is no way to get around them. You must EMPHASIZE to the teams that that's the way it's going to be. Heavy fines and suspension will be the penalty. Well who's going to do that???????????? Well obviously it's going to have to be the tracks. So how can you blame the teams for spending all this money????????????????????????????? Once again and QUITE OBVIOUSLY if the avenue to cheat and spend money is NOT there, then you tell me how the teams are going to do it?????????????????????? I don't care for NASCAR, but they do have a very strict rule book and it is enforced. Do people still try to cheat????? Yes they do! Are they caught??? Well, Yes they are! Is it expensive????????? Well, Yes it is! Is it a deterrent, and does it keep cheating to a minimum??????????? You BETTCHA!

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The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all.
Gilbert K. Chesterton


Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.
Mark Twain


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:52 pm 
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:00 pm 
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